Comment by yawaworht1978 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by yawaworht1978 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I used to live in Barcelona, the infrastructure is definitely anti car in every aspect, it's desired to be. For such a large city, the car traffic is minimal, there are not enough parking opportunities, especially at the beach. There would be space, but the government knows better, if you have ever been in a tourist destination in Spain during peak season you will know that there is no way to accommodate all the cars. The only traffic jams you'll encounter is if an accident happened or if you go from Barcelona outwards toward the airport, when commuters go home on Friday afternoons or evening when headed to the nicer , less crowded beaches in the south. But absolutely nothing compared to London, I have lived there as well and driven a car. It's the city with the worst traffic jams you can imagine, it starts at 7am and never really ends, after 8pm it's quite calm and deserted one weekdays. But weekends, if you wanna go from the south east to the north, God help you. It's very bicycle friendly, own parts of the roads, unobstructed by cars. Taxis have a separate lane, and buses as well. The public transportation is also very good, affordable, you have buses, underground trains, and well, overground trains. And it's a nice city to walk, the old part of town, the huge parks, really nice.

A role model implementation as far reducing car traffic issues go. Many people use these electro kind skateboards(forgot name) and scooters. And many people just walk. Of course , it needs to be mentioned that Barcelona is not built like American suburb areas, it's all apartment blocks of 3-7 stories, all blocks glued together. It's tight, they even have a convention on how to dry your clothes on balconies and how not to do it. Barcelona has many other issues, the typical ones for large cities, but transport and car traffic, I haven't seen better in Europe.

> It's very bicycle friendly, own parts of the roads, unobstructed by cars

Only in some streets. Many streets don't have cycle lanes. Or only in one direction, and it's not really clear where to find one in the direction you're going. It's a bit of maze trying to figure it out and in the end you just end up in between the cars..

The crossings aren't that safe either because turning traffic doesn't have their own green timeslot, they're supposed to turn when straight gets green but give way to crossing traffic. But drivers often don't check very well, I often see near misses.

Coming from the Netherlands the bicycle lanes there are really much better with their dedicated green lights, lanes everywhere (almost always in both directions) and separate crossings. They're also better marked and uninterrupted (in some barcelona streets they suddenly just stop or move to another side without clear indication). I definitely don't feel safe cycling in Barcelona. I mainly walk here and take the metro.

I hope the bicycle network will improve going forward as cars are excluded from the city more. They make a good effort so far but it's definitely not great :)

I have only been to Amsterdam and the airport in the Netherlands, it was a while ago, but no way did Amsterdam have a better infrastructure for bicycles 10 years ago than Barcelona has today. I could be wrong, but the main streets didn't have the nice two way lanes like in Barcelona and the red light, coffee shop district is similar to cuidad vella and Raval, both in spirit and infrastructure, both are not optimal for anything. I heard Denmark is on a high level too and maybe the Netherlands as a whole are much better. It has to be said that Barcelona is an exemption, Madrid and other cities don't even come close, apart from some few very rich pueblos on the coast. At least in Barcelona you can use the main roads to get tangentially near your desired destination and from there it's a bit less luxurious. I agree that left turning cars are very dangerous for more vulnerable vehicles. For example , to turn left , you have to get to the proper lane in time(not so easy, many people report map applications to have notorious delays in parts on the city), then check for ongoing traffic, sometimes the innermost are bicycles, then cars, then another lane plus pedestrians with no regards to red light green light rules. It's also true that the lanes are often interrupted by other rather large streets etc. But overall, it's a breeze going from one of the big parks to Barceloneta. Big negative point is in summer, it's no fun, the heat can be horrible, and if you are on a red light next to a bus, the fumes and other car emissions are in your face and the temperature feels like it jumped 10 deg Celsius within 3 seconds. To clarify, I am sure there are better small cities in that regard, I only tried to say Barcelona has the best solutions compared to other large cities. The negative point of course is, it's downright hostile to car drivers, some people enjoy driving a car(I don't ever own a car unless I live in a remote area).

The centre of Asterdam is an exception though. It's a bit of a tourist fair now, the same way the old town and Ramblas areas are here. Especially the red light district is more like an open air museum than a real city :) Yeah some 'real' people live there but it's mainly students that live there for a short time and like the novelty.

The area is just highly constrained by the canals and even as a car driver it's a nightmare to go there. It's a maze of one-way streets, closures and blocks etc. Not representative of a typical Dutch city at all. Nor comparable to Barcelona which has wide streets (ciutad vella etc excluded of course)

All other Dutch cities are very different (except perhaps for a tiny area in the center). Much more boring too though. Mostly new buildings.

But don't consider Amsterdam (the centre at least) as a measure for the rest of the Netherlands, they're very different things :)

Cyclists are still given the stink eye in England if they even consider cycling on the pavement (I was once physically assaulted as a teen by a 'concerned citizen' for doing such a reckless thing), despite it being completely normal in other European cities.

Before the bike lanes were common, you had to cut your teeth zipping between the cars in the narrow roads, keeping up with traffic speeds, annoying every driver who gave you an inch, terrifying bewildered tourists, and watching your face get smashed by door after door after door.

When the cycle lanes were rolled out, things became much safer between bikes and cars, but now all bikes are herded together and you experience a bike lane traffic as Mr Expensive Latex seems to have no idea how to pull over to let others pass whilst he's busy clicking in his shoes.

It's very safe now. I kind of miss the mad chaos London used to be when cycling, when only the dumb and the brave dared to battle the busses. When you'd get to work pumped with the adrenaline and the knowledge that you survived the journey

> It's very safe now. I kind of miss the mad chaos London used to be when cycling, when only the dumb and the brave dared to battle the busses. When you'd get to work pumped with the adrenaline and the knowledge that you survived the journey

I didn't even experience that and I miss it! Years ago, I watched some TV programme where the protagonist tried to cycle through central London and had multiple terrifying near-misses.

Then I moved there, went for a bike ride and was thinking "what are they on about? there's not _that_ much traffic on the road, there's tons of cyclists, all the buses are pretty cautious, and there's cycle lanes everywhere!"

> I kind of miss the mad chaos London used to be when cycling, when only the dumb and the brave dared to battle the busses.

That's a bit like soldiers missing the war period. You damn adrenaline junkies...

The Netherlands has some of the best bike infrastructure in the world. It’s not really fair to compare Barcelona to them negatively.

Should Barcelona learn from the Netherlands? Yes.

Should Barcelona be blamed for not being as good as The Netherlands? No.

It has a good public transport system, yes, but ironically it's the only city where I felt kind of insecure in the subway. Always making sure nobody is going to pickpocket me or I don't look the wrong way at some guy looking for trouble.

A friend of mine works there as security and after all the stories he told me I rather get in a car and deal with the traffic.

And I'm saying this as someone who uses the subway to commute but in a safer city. I literally get in, close my eyes and open them after 20 minutes.

Anyone who works as security/law enforcement is going to have a significantly more cynical view of humanity. Not unlike how software professionals are leery of software quality (e.g. us being generally opposed to digital elections).

Personally public transport in Barcelona felt safer than the equivalent in most major North American cities. For example there’s what I believe is a bullet hole in the glass at one of the stations I frequently use — and I know for a fact that several people have been shot dead directly outside that station.

You said it, North American cities. These are not safe cities according to my standards.

The standard mismatch between "Euro-metro" and "US-metro" folks on some things is sadly hilarious - I'll always remember the faces of some SF acquaintances when I mentioned, in passing, that public transport in San Francisco is pretty bad overall... I realized I made a horrible faux-pas and never mentioned it again.

For what it's worth the subway is very safe in terms of violent crime. But pickpockets are a scourge yes. The problem is the police can only give them a fine if they steal less than 400 euro in value (see more info about that here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/14/woman-defends-... ). Even if it's their 5000th time. There's gangs of professional pickpockets.

They got me once and I've busted them trying a couple of times. Whenever you grab them they always just drop the phone or wallet and walk off, they never fight. But I did notice they always work in groups so they probably do attack if you get violent yourself.

Yes, the city has very unsafe places, IE Rival, cuidad vella. The amount of ambulance sirens and police presence speaks for itself.

It feels less safe than London, I have lived in 3 not so good boroughs in London.

Those areas are not that unsafe. I often walk there, even at night. Though I do try to avoid them as the pickpockets tend to hang out there because they're so touristy. And the Ramblas area is very overrated anyway IMO.

Barcelona is really not bad at all for violent crime :)

There's some places that really are a bit unsafe but it's more out. Like La Mina, there's been some shootings there recently: https://www.lavanguardia.com/sucesos/20210908/7706383/tirote... (Though technically that's not Barcelona anymore but Sant Adria de Besos)

I visited a lot of Spanish cities. Santiago, Oviedo, Gijón, León, Valladolid, Madrid, Girona, Málaga, Sevilla, Cádiz, Cordoba, Granada and Barcelona so far.

As far as the general sense of unease goes, Barcelona takes the first place. Some people there are outright creepy. I generally like the city, but I would not dare venture into the old centre's small alleys after dark.

Also, pickpockets. All touristy places have them, but Barcelona, man...

Shame, because the city is otherwise a jewel.

Yes, I agree, I lived very near to the big cinemas, next to mc Donald's, cross the street and you're in Raval. As a man, it looks a bit dodgy, but walking there in the night felt ok. I have seen some wild things there by drugged up or drunk people which have left women paralyzed from fear looking into the ground, though. I know there's more dangerous areas, with proper drug houses etc and Raval etc benefit from high police presence as it's their tourist jewel, so to say. So for women and kids it might feel more scary, almost every children park has permanent drinkers, the smell of marijuana and the occasional heroin junkie here and there. I have observed some interesting discussions between dealers and police, while the police knows most the dealers, they can't do too much, but they do have an eye on them, so it's safer than it first appears.

Btw , I fully agree that the particular rambla de Raval Is tacky, overpriced and the food is just bad. The places on the beach are much better. Ah, now thinking about it, kinda miss the city, it has many good parts and things.

My dad has travelled pretty much all countries between the Atlantic and the Danube, and was only pickpocketed once - in Barcelona. A friend of mine who lives there, freely admits the pickpocketing is out of control - and we're hardened thief-aware Italians. Same for anybody who goes there on vacation and hits the busy hotspots.

Are you speaking of Barcelona or London?

Barcelona.

Visiting Barcelona it didn't seem remotely car "unfriendly". In fact the opposite, much of the city was a boring grid and lots of streets full of fast moving cars.

It's seemed very far from the "ideals" of say this channel's opinions on cities designed to be "anti-car"

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A

how did people react to reduction of cars ? in many places every step toward reduction of car use is met with a lot of rants if not anger.

People who live in the city live it, people (specially rich people) who drives from outside the city hate it.

Yes I think one thing is kinda missing in this setup. The public transport in Barcelona is absolutely excellent. But there's no great way to get into it from the outside if you come by car.

Most cities I know have Park & Ride facilities at the outskirts near ring roads. Barcelona doesn't seem to have these (though perhaps I'm missing them as I don't own a car).

But I know my colleagues who come from outside are always struggling to find a parking spot, and they tell me there is no P&R.

That's a choice dense cities have to make. Is the city primarily a place where outsiders come to do business, or is it a place where its residents live? If the latter, then you don't want to make coming by car too easy, or you get too much traffic that makes the quality of life worse.

Park & Ride is something that rarely makes economic sense. If you have a location with good public transport connections to the city, you probably want to build housing there. Alternate uses of the land – and parking in particular – are less valuable. Because people don't want to pay the market price for the land for parking, Park & Ride only works with heavy subsidies. The subsidies are usually implicit and implemented via zoning regulations, because taxpayers would revolt instantly against explicit subsidies.

I would argue Park & Ride just doesn't really work in most circumstances. As a commuter, you get twice the stress - a car trip (including the anxiety of leaving your vehicle in public places for extended periods) AND a public transport ride.

It does work for tourists and other occasional visitors, but then the challenge is to make them aware it is an option when they plan the trip.

The problem is a bunch of place introduce traffic limitations or some congestion tax...

But then do nothing else! You have to find an alternative for people to not take their car (closer grocery shop for instance).

Meanwhile the money goes to some pension fund for underperforming, unionized municipal workers...

But there's many supermarkets in the city! I have about 10 of them within 10 minutes walking. Several smaller ones within 1 minute.

I see, it's not smarter than here.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com