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Comment by echelon | Hacker News Reader

Bit of an aside, but it's only a "1000:1" problem because

- The response can't have a blast radius

- Human software systems can't be formally verified in a tractable amount of time

- etc.

I'd go as far as to wager that if it weren't for MAD, the US might be sending SEAL or Special Forces teams in to deal with hackers.

When we have an AGI, perhaps it will develop systems impervious to intrusion. Or maybe it'll take the simpler approach and eradicate all humans and other capable AI actors.

This is expensive because it's guerrilla warfare.

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At one point we came relatively close to using a nuke to deal with a hacking attempt, though taking down NORAD is going to get people nervous. Not everyone can respond to hackers by building an independent global network, but it is one model.

> At one point we came relatively close to using a nuke to deal with a hacking attempt

Do you have a source on this? Sounds like an interesting read

Unfortunately it was a first hand account, solar sunrise 1998 was the event but many of the details aren’t exactly public. The critical bits where it was being routed through a compromised machine in Baghdad, many DoD systems where running email alongside more mission critical applications, and the timing was the lead up to the first Iraq war.

"At one point we came relatively close to using a nuke to deal with a hacking attempt"

That sounds like wet dream of a genocidal maniac. There is no way this claim is credible

Read up on solar sunrise, a infosec teacher of mine was involved on the Army side and said it was seriously being considered because of timing and email being run on some extremely mission critical systems. This was lead up to first Iraq war and things where being routed through a machine in Baghdad. So, the possibility that this was a military attack was seriously being considered.

And no I don’t think it was likely, but there’s only so many time in history senior military people have referred to nuking something in a non joking manner.

Having just read a couple articles about it, I see no reference to nuclear strike anywhere. Do you understand that proposition is to commit genocide at a minimum, and maybe start WW3?

If you wanted to use military force, you would create a power blackout in target area by destroying closest substation or powerplant.

"In the end, two California High School students were arrested and pled guilty. Their mentor, an 18 year-old Israeli, was also arrested"

Surely noone is mad enough to nuke their own country? Or would you nuke the wrong ciutry instead?

Articles are written after the conclusion was already reached. In the moment you don’t know who’s behind the attack just that you can’t tell if ICBM’s are incoming to the US and the attack seems to be coming from a country we are literately preparing to go to war with.

It’s that moment the options are to successfully hack the machine, do nothing and hope no physical attack is incoming, try and penetrate serious air defenses with conventional aircraft, or use an ICBM. I don’t mean to suggest people where requesting authorization from the president for a nuclear strike, just that it was considered which is a serious escalation for a cyber attack.

As to the articles, you will note Iraq is mentioned many times by military officials even the attacks originated from teens in the US and Israel. Some of that’s timing, but the other part is as I said the machine happened to be located in Baghdad. Also, the press briefing before they arrested the teens shows just how serious this was being taken. It really wasn’t business as usual.

"you can’t tell if ICBM’s are incoming to the US"

Why can't we tell? US has a world-wide network of early warning radars and satellites specifically built for this purpose during cold war. Various allied countries have their own networks too, and would warn US.

Iraq never had ICBMs and no-one ever claimed that they do.

I am not seeing a plausible scenario of 'unnoticed incoming ICBM' on US.

"try and penetrate serious air defenses with conventional aircraft, or use an ICBM"

US has bombed Iraq (and many other contries) multiple times by then with minimal losses. I am struggling to see how nuclear holocaust was an appealing option.

Increadible thing do sometimes happen, so I would be interested in there is an article explaining the events or this line of thinking.

> ‘unnoticed incoming ICBM’ on US.

Lack of ICBM’s was assumed, but on the moment when your early warning system goes down while your preparing for an invasion it’s hard to stay rational.

The plausible scenario as to why the warning system went down is ARPA net was designed to keep military computers in contact through a nuclear attack. ARPA net became the internet but before SIPERnet and so it was still being used to keep those critical systems in contact. Hackers compromised those systems, because the military was using the same sendmail software as everyone else.

Now for us looking backwards it’s like wait what about computer security, but it largely didn’t exist back then.

DSP doesn't depend on any external networks. There are mobile receiver terminals that can receive their transmissions and relay warning to combatant commanders. There's actually a funny little national guard post that houses those doomsday trucks. Another interesting garage is at F.E. Warren (mobile STRATCOM survivable NC3).

Assuming they didn’t depend on ground stations for anything in 1998 that might poke a hole in the story. On the other hand you can’t exactly use one of those inside NORAD’s bunker so they could have been blind until someone setup an independent relay.

The whole early warning system was not down, Long range radars are independent, not connected to the internet, and in the worst case they could use a phone and smoke signals. There was no credible nuclear threat.

Given that you can't refer anyone to anything written, this whole story defies logic and smells of a dead possum.

Could be, these systems should have been completely isolated on DSNET 3.

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