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Comment by Ice_cream_suit | Hacker News Reader

Education by legislation has now reached the apogee of insanity.

"If teachers are obliged to tell their classes that there is “another point of view” about whether the Holocaust occurred, must American history lessons now also include books asserting that the United States was never a slave-holding nation or that racism ended with the Emancipation Proclamation?

If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"

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Unfortunate I think it can and will get crazier, and we’re just at the start of it. I’m surprised the teachers haven’t yet organized any opposition or civil disobedience.

I couldn’t believe the headline when I first read it, the DMN even has a quote from the legislators saying that the educators “just got it wrong.” Clearly no, it’s just a poorly written, misguided law.

>>If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"

The answer from the [another point of view on the Holocaust] people will of course be "YES".

Make no mistake - this is a straight-up attempt to implement a minority rule autocracy in the USA, directly attacking the democracy at every level. This is merely one early sign of what is to come if they are allowed to succeed. NB it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary.

> it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary.

What do you mean? They have seemingly standard parliamentary elections, last one in 2018, next up is 2022. People voted for Orban and co., and their policies are apparently preferred by majority. So how is it minority rule?

You can say the same about Putin in Russia or Erdoğan in Turkey - they also "won" their elections.

It is pseudo-democracy, where all the supposedly independent institutions (judiciary, legislative, academia, press, etc.) have been coopted and/or are under the thumb of the dictator/"elected leader", and what matters is not who votes but who counts the votes (and whose candidates and votes are suppressed or ruled 'illegal').

In the case of Hungary and Orbán, that parliament that you mentioned, back in March 2020, gave him virtually unlimited powers with no end date [1].

These virtually unlimited powers include: - State of emergency w/o time limit - Rule by decree - Parliament suspended - No elections - Spreading fake news + rumors: up to 5 yrs in prison - Leaving quarantine: up to 8 yrs in prison

So, that's how.

On a side note, I congratulate you for responding. It is really disappointing to see on HN that any mention of how democracy itself is under attack and in serious danger of being lost results in downvote hordes without comments. There is either a big bunch that doesn't want to hear it, or doesn't want it to be heard. At least you engaged in the discussion, so thx!

[1]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orb...

Thanks for clarifying. So what you meant was that Orban and a small circle of people already in the Hungarian government got strong powers from the parliament to rule by decree and they use it to suppress civil liberties and liberal values and this is dangerous. I think I agree with that, but at the same time, this seems to be completely democratic process. I don't see autocracy or minority rule. I would be pissed if this happened in my country, but that is the problem with democracy - sometimes the naive and scared majority takes you democratically to hell.

Yup, that is exactly what happened in Germany in the 1920s-30s - the National Socialists and Hitler were 'democratically' elected, and went forward to subvert everything.

But I would say that just because a group can subvert the rules and institutions of democracy once in power, that they are still a small-d democratic regime because they were initially elected and followed some of the forms.

E.g., Putin just won his elections, but only after he put his primary opposition in jail...

'If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"'

A man and a woman are the reproductive unit, and opponents of same sex marriage, including me, do not think the government should be sanctioning and thereby blessing other kinds of unions. A May 2019 Gallup poll found that 36% oppos same sex marriage. I think their views should be understood, if one is going to cover LGBTQ issues fairly.

So should we ban infertile men from marrying, since they can no longer form a “reproductive unit”? How about my wife and I who have decided to not have kids - should we get a divorce?

The government does not pry into such details, but the reason why marriage historically consisted of a man and a woman is that they reproduce together. Why are marriages of cousins and closer relatives banned in the U.S.? Because society does not view certain couples as proper reproductive units.

That dosesn’t answer my questions though. You are against same sex marriage because they don’t form a reproductive unit. Infertile people don’t either. By your logic, they shouldn’t be able to get married either.

Also, cousin marriages are allowed in about half the U.S. states. A few states that allow it actually require one partner to be infertile - proof that the government does pry into such details.

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