Comment by nbzso | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nbzso | Hacker News Reader

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I up-voted your comment, you ask reasonable question and I will try to answer it honestly.

It is a use case.

There are different levels of design craft. The more you, as a designer, train your mind and eyes, the more you see invisible things for regular people.

I can spend days in clearing the white space between glyph/kerning of typography and this notch will distract my eyes constantly. Call it OCD or professional deformation, the notch will drive me crazy.:)

When designing you want every visual distraction to be absent from your screen, for example I use 50% gray for wallpaper to have middle gray reference etc.

You cannot compare iPhone UX with Design process UX. When you use your phone, you have a legitimate reason for compromise. When you use Pro labeled hardware you expect all Pro use cases and Pro UX to be respected.

Don't get me wrong, I like the overall design (even the redesign of the shape of the keys), and there is no doubt that this are top-notch monsters. But for my use-case this is no go.

Idea: Write a utility to add in a software bezel for folks like this. We can call it distraction free mode. We'll take the extra space back and replace it with a black bezel. The webcam and front facing utilities are now within that space. You can toggle it on and off.

> I can spend days in clearing the white space between glyph/kerning of typography and this notch will distract my eyes constantly. Call it OCD or professional deformation, the notch will drive me crazy.:)

As an aside, most designers I know use external monitors. Do you find yourself doing this type of work on your laptop display?

> As an aside, most designers I know use external monitors. Do you find yourself doing this type of work on your laptop display?

Guilty as charged (Two Eizos), but I work outside the office regularly, or in the weekends when "inspiration" strikes.

What is the point of Pro laptop when I cannot perform my work at a maximum UX comfort.

Another use-case is that I develop my photos on the go, so on, so on.:)

I am still partially in the Apple Ecosystem (mainly due to C1) so by the looks of it I will have to transition to something different.

> Idea: Write a utility to add in a software bezel for folks like this. We can call it distraction free mode. We'll take the extra space back and replace it with a black bezel. The webcam and front facing utilities are now within that space. You can toggle it on and off.

My first reaction was this idea also. I am sure that as we speak someone is firing up Xcode and it will be available if Apple approves it:)

The notch is not just a blow to the aesthetics, but it actually is annoying when it comes to software with long menu bars. Also, what happens when you install many plugins in the menu? The notch is literally taking up good space that could be used for menu apps.

It absolutely should be an option, but it'd also suck to lose that portion of the screen's vertical real estate in its entirety - especially when 16:9 / 16:10 aspect ratios already make said vertical real estate scarce as-is.

The aspect ratio of the new MBP seems to come out to 16:10.4. I assume that the 0.4 is the notch zone, and the part of the screen below it is 16:10. So it's really just a standard 16:10 with some extra pixels, which sounds good to me.

>Idea: Write a utility to add in a software bezel for folks like this.

I'd be surprised if this isn't an OS level option.

How I would bet anything I own that there isn't, and won't ever be one, knowing Apple. This would admit there's a problem and some users may not like the new innovation allowing for more screen space.

It is an option, at least in full screen mode. https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/macos-hides-notch-on-ne...

Thats really when it would matter. MacOS has an ever present menu bar at the top of the screen. A notch would be entirely unintrusive - and practically invisible in Dark Mode.

Knowing apple, there won't be. iPhones don't have this option, but my OnePlus does for the camera hole.

> When you use Pro labeled hardware you expect all Pro use cases and Pro UX to be respected.

This can't possibly be the case, though. There are infinite Pro use cases and trying to respect them all would result in a confused and inferior product.

I'm not saying that your reasons for disliking the notch are wrong, or that they should have the notch. But they're working within certain constraints -- there's just no way to fit a decent webcam into a laptop screen without making space. As someone who's recently been trying to help his fiancee pick out a laptop, where said fiancee's primary criterion is that the laptop webcam shouldn't suck, I empathize with the decision.

I disagree, respectfully.

The main target audience of MacBook Pro started with designers, writers and musicians (just looking on the shelf towards my old Titanium PowerBook G4).

There are not so much professional use cases which will agree on removing screen estate and adding visual distraction. Screen estate is the main difference in professional UX.

One of the reasons that I mentioned the Framework laptop is that a small company can get super-close to professional audience when searching pro solutions with common sense.

The Mighty Apple with trillions in bank cannot come-up with something "innovative" and chooses the "trade off" approach?

> The Mighty Apple with trillions in bank cannot come-up with something "innovative" and chooses the "trade off" approach?

Do you think having money means Apple never has to make tradeoffs? There are always tradeoffs. It's just not possible to make a good webcam that exists in the tiny space at the top of an ultra-thin screen with ultra-thin bezels. Most manufacturers just make terrible webcams, including the Framework that you've brought up as a good alternative (which has much thicker bezels besides).

That's one way to go. Another way is to make space for the webcam. Apple can't magically throw money at every conceivable problem until it disappears.

You don't have to buy one of the new MacBooks. I suspect that most designers aren't going to have as much of a problem with it as you're suggesting, though. Outside of full screen most folks won't notice it after a while, and when you go to full screen Apple adds a black bezel anyway.

> It's just not possible to make a good webcam that exists in the tiny space at the top of an ultra-thin screen with ultra-thin bezels.

Maybe they could consider, you know, not dogmatically pursuing ultra-thin bezels for their own sake?

> and when you go to full screen Apple adds a black bezel anyway.

That's good to hear, but that then entails entirely removing a chunk of vertical screen real estate - which is already at a premium (relative to horizontal) with widescreen aspect ratios. Contrast with the Framework (or, similarly, the Pixelbook), which doesn't need to do that and boasts a 3:2 aspect ratio to improve upon that vertical real estate.

A laptop with thick bezels and no notch is the same as a laptop with no bezels, a notch and those pixels disabled in software. It sounds like you want it both ways - you don’t want to lose your vertical real estate (“which is already at a premium”). And you don’t want the notch. In the same paragraph talking about how important vertical real estate is, you hold up other laptops like the framework as ideal even though they lose vertical real estate via the chunky bezel.

I’m confused. Do you want design aesthetics (no notch)? Or do you want more vertical real estate (less bezels + a notch)? Having both would be the best. But given we can’t have that, if you were in charge of the MacBook Pro design, what would you choose?

> you hold up other laptops like the framework as ideal even though they lose vertical real estate via the chunky bezel.

Because they more than make up for it with the 3:2 aspect ratio.

> Do you want design aesthetics (no notch)?

Don't care about aesthetics.

> But given we can’t have that, if you were in charge of the MacBook Pro design, what would you choose?

Bigger top bezel and - ideally - a 3:2 aspect ratio.

I still don't understand. Lets say we have two machines:

- Machine 1 has a large top bezel and no notch

- Machine 2 has a tiny top bezel and a notch, but the pixels to either side of the notch are disabled in software (and never used). The part of the display thats enabled has identical geometry to machine 1.

Aesthetics aside, aren't these machines identical in every way? You have a strong preference for machine 1. Why?

> You have a strong preference for machine 1. Why?

Because Machine 2 offers nothing of value over Machine 1 - only more complexity and more opportunities for hardware and software issues.

> There are not so much professional use cases which will agree on removing screen estate and adding visual distraction. Screen estate is the main difference in professional UX.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of the new screen? Apple is reducing the bezel around the screen to provide you more screen space. How do you handle front-facing utilities like a webcam when you use up all available space? Their solution is to surround that area with a small boundary (the dreaded notch).

You can see that the Framework Laptop you cite has a large bezel around it to provide that top bar. You have less screen area here.

From the screenshots, it looks like programs running in full screen mode are pushed down to leave that top area, to give you your distraction free experience: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/

Yes, I clearly see in the first frame a wallpaper with black background that hides the notch.:) So they give me a real estate by removing the bezel and remove the vertical display space to hide the notch. Nice solution, but as I sad, not for my use-case.

Why does it not work for your use case? When the areas either side of the notch are unused (as in full screen mode) you just have a regular 16:10 screen with a top bezel. If previous MacBook screens worked for you then this one will too.

The stated resolution of the screen is 3024x1964. If you do the math, this basically amounts to a 3024x1890 16:10 display, with a 3024x74 extra display on top that is interrupted in the middle. Considering that the menu bar usually has empty space in the middle, isn't it a strict screen estate gain to move the menu to this extra display?

I mean, what would you have preferred, exactly? If they had stuck to a 3024x1890 display, no one would have had the slightest complain, but it would be unequivocally less than what we're getting. Again: the notch is located outside of the same 16:10 screen every other MBP has.

If it's about deliberately training your mind and eyes in order to use tools efficiently as a professional designer, then surely one could apply that training to focus on relevant parts of the screen and not the notch. Sure, if all else is equal between a laptop with a notch and one without, choose the one without the notch, but it's odd for the presence of a notch to be a dealbreaker for a computer that one otherwise would have chosen.

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