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Comment by nanna | Hacker News Reader

Horrific. Autism is about neural difference not deficiency. The problem is neurotypical societies pathologising and disabling neurodivergent people. What this article discusses is analogous to treatment for homosexuality. Shame on you, Duke university.

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Horrific? I have friends whose children are almost completely non-verbal, who require full time state funded caregivers to live with them, and who will likely never be able to live on their own due to their severe autism.

Yes. That is deficiency. Nobody on earth would choose that. Suggesting otherwise is abusive and to use your words horrific. Do not make these children martyrs in whatever stupid war you are trying to fight here.

That always struck me as an odd black and white argument. It's a lot like the Capital 'D' Deaf community. Yes, it can be a part of your identity, but to some, it is legitimately just a disability; an impediment in major life functions.

Not everyone on the autism spectrum can even function, let alone function in society. Not everyone who is neurodivergent can function in society.

Some can, sure. But for those that cannot, a treatment that works would be a god-send.

It is more complicated than that. On the "milder" side of the spectrum that is certainly true. On the severe side of the spectrum there can be significant cognitive deficiencies that impair an individual from living the life they desire. There is nothing wrong with creating tools to help ameliorate those deficiences as long as the goal is not to "force them to be normal" but rather to give them tools to help them realize their potential unique and valuable abilities and perspectives.

Edit: This does appear to be a money grubbing attempt to capitalize on poorly informed and desperate parents rather than an attemot to create tools to empower individuals with ASD.

"It is estimated that 25% to 50% of children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) never develop spoken language beyond a few words or utterances."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_autism

Trying to help these mute children gain speech. Horrific.

No, it’s is literally a deficiency. It is the metabolic latency of parts of the brain. It’s having parts of your brain turned off.

It's a spectrum, right there in the name. People with severe autism often can't even speak. My sister didn't say her first word until she was four. Watching my own just-turned-four daughter go on at length about her day and tell stories, I can't imagine my mom's fear.

What a load of nonsense, autism is a horrible thing that should be entirely eliminated if possible. An autist probably will never be a salesman, for instance, we should make that not the case if we can because otherwise those opportunitues will stay off limits because of some peoples birth. Then there are the more severe cases where people cant speak and care for themselves. Thats not a society issue, thats a birth defect and working to fix it is good.

As an autist who's done sales (yes, I hate it, wouldn't ever choose that career), this is bullshit. I have adhd(inattentive, formerly ADD) and am high level on the ASD specrtum.

Sure, my life gets fucked up a lot by my brain over analyzing things, or hyper focusing or just not focusing on anything at all, and I miss a lot of queues from loved ones, associates, etc.. but I also have movments of genius that everyone else seems to lack, I have passions in things and see stuff others miss.

When I'm on my ADHD meds, I mostly function okay, my executive function even works a large portion of the time. Could I be more successful? Certainly, but do I feel like I'm missing out on opportunities because of it? Nah, not at all. I also didn't know I had ADHD or Autism till i was 38, I just basically learned to cope in life as a normie, but learning has given me just some extra tools to become a bit better at coping through the hard stuff in life.

Ok Im glad you were able to do that and that you can still have a good life. If we could fix it though, more opportunities would be available, maybe you'd have enjoyed it and could have it as a career you liked. There are also a lot of other people not so high functioning that literally just couldnt, and others who can't even live on their own as adults. Maybe you dont need a treatment like this but there are people where it would change their lives.

And what if in the process if making everyone "salesman material" we divert a potential "weirdo genius" from making a much larger contribution?

Diversity is important and valuable. I highly doubt that ASD (and our cognitive diversity in general) is an evolutionary mistake.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't make tools and treatments available, but it absolutely does mean we shouldn't insist on "fixing" everyone with ASD.

I guess my phrasing wasnt clear, I wasnt talking so much about "weirdo genius" level of function but more people who just cant function well. Theres a level where some people are very good at certain things but not so sociable, more like Aspergers disease, thats fine and caused by more stuff than just autism. Its when it starts preventing people from doing basic function, caring for themselves, holding basic conversation that it becomes a problem.

I think this is an area where our choice of words and efforts to speak clearly are especially important.

Empowering people is very different than fixing them.

So you're saying society needs more Salesmen, less Einstein's and Alan Turings? Wonder how ww2 would've fared without them.

I have a friend who has autism and he’s a fantastic salesperson because he just takes potential buyers at their word. You’re not the market for a car? Cool. Give him a call when you are and in the meantime let him know if you have any questions. And he genuinely means it.

That car is too expensive? Well what’s your budget? He’ll tell you right away whether he can make the numbers work with that model or he’ll show you the next best thing you can buy for that price range.

Is he the stereotypical slick sales guy? Not at all. But he sells lots of cars because he’s really good at what he does and, more importantly, customers really like working with him.

To take your argument even further:

It is good to have more than one type of salesperson. Some customers like/respond to one approach and some don't. Having a cognitively diverse salesforce should make your sales unit stronger and more flexible.

Monocultures are fragile and inflexible.

Lots of people won't ever be suited to being a salesperson. This is a horrible justification for attempting to eliminate neurodiversity.

> An autist probably will never be a salesman, for instance

Good? We'd probably be better off with fewer salesmen in the world.

So what, deprive these kids of the possibility of choosing something? Why not give them the choice?

Let them become adults, and if they want to later inflict neurological damage upon themselves, then fine. But don't neglect them treatment.

Autistic people also often have capabilities that neurotypical people don't. So treating them would also be denying them opportunities. I think any treatment would have to be taken on a case by case basis. This particular one sounds like it doesn't work anyway.

Blind people also have capabilities that sighted people don’t have.

Give the kids the treatment. If they want to choose later in life to blind themselves, fine, they’re adults. Don’t make them part of a crusade that they didn’t consent to.

I say this as somebody who had several major surgeries as a child to save my eyesight.

> I say this as somebody who had several major surgeries as a child to save my eyesight.

The moral calculus here depends on how severe the impairment is and the potential risks / harms associated with the treatments.

At one end of the impairment/risk ratio, it is certainly ethical. Somewhere in the middle, I think you need to obtain the minor's consent. At the other end the treament isn't ever ethical ever to conduct on a minor.

What if the "sight saving" treatment has a high risk of them losing their sight at an older age when developing the abilities to navigate as a blind person are harder?

The issue here is an ongoing debate about which ASD differences are impairments (and about the severity.) and which are just stigmatized. I think to make this determination ethically you MUST listen to the range of opinions from adults who faced similar situations. If there isn't a clear consensus, I think we should be hesitant to impose treatment without consent.

Is it "horrific" or comparable to gay conversion therapy to make sight-saving treatments available?

I picked it as a single role that requires lots of customer interaction and social cues, it could be lots of stuff, customer service or others. That was just 1 example.

The most successful salesperson in the world Mark Zuckerberg has some form of mild autism, in my opinion (which is shared by some Facebook employees and on autism forums).

He sold the world and the investment community that he's selling communication while he's really selling digital crack cocaine.

Pretty sure Elon Musk is ASD too, I'm ASD (slightly, self-diagnosed my wife has ADHD-C, I WAS diagnosed with ADHD-I 3 years ago, and after MANY youtube channel watches of ASD and ADD/ADHD stuff, and being told by 3 separate friends (all w/ ASD) that if they've got it, so do I, I just accepted it).. .

It does make sense, I ramble often, on a topic and I can get so focused on one subject that I neglect everything else for weeks, and sure that's a sign of ADHD, but it crosses over, my brother has it too, and I think my wife does as well, cause there's a female YT channel on it, and she and the host are like twins (behaviorially)...

I'm not a fan of Zuck or Musk (used to be a fan, but he's just a self-absorbed rich kid who got lucky because he had money to begin with), but I do see ASD as a two edged sword it can lead to greatness (I have brilliant ideas) or failure (I have fear of launching, because I'm very sensitive to criticism, and rejection) .. but having access to money makes fear of failure less because well you can afford better market testing, and hire people to help fill in the gaps...

TLDR: Not a fan of elon/zuck, both probably are ASD, so am I, my take is it didn't make them successful, it may have contributed, but it definitely didn't hurt them either, but people w/ ASD often get paired as being like the guy on the "Good Doctor" and I hate that, many w/ ASD you can't even tell until they tell you or you work in close quarters w/ them for awhile... it's not very pronounced on a lot of people and most programmers probably are on spectrum, it's a good career choice for us (almost perfect)... I'm one.

agreed. I was taken aback that the first issue in the article being discussed is efficacy rather than ethics concerning the rights of the autistic child in question. Autism is not merely a disease and the question whether these treatments infringe on the identity of a person should be paramount before anyone is subjected to them.

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