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Comment by cnst | Hacker News Reader

That's some good news, hopefully a change will follow.

Note that Apple Pay also has a very low limit on the number of cards that you can add, presumably because each card occupies an actual hardware slot. In the original iPhone SE, that's only 8 cards, and Apple Cash (the debit card) gets counted as one of those (unless you're remove it manually), then if you have Apple Card (the credit card), presumably it takes another slot, so you're only left with just 6 slots for any other contactless credit or debit card.

How's such a low limit good for the consumer? If you only have 6 cards in total, might as well simply carry all of them in your wallet anyways; I do that already.

Android Pay and Google Pay don't have such tiny, restrictive and anticompetitive limits. I have like 20 different credit cards as contactless in Google Pay without any issues, which is very convenient if you care about bonus categories; same was for Android Pay before it got rebranded as Google Pay.

Plus, in Android, you can even select a third party app to be used for contactless in the "Default apps" — "Tap & pay" settings instead of Google Pay; I know Wells Fargo used to have contactless support in their own app at one point, for example, and was selectable there.

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I'm gonna drop this HN comment into the bin of "I have an extremely unusual need, but am totally obvlious about it, so this product is objectively bad for not catering to it"

Normal people do not have 20 credit cards. Even people I know who have several cards, often only have a couple they actually use on a daily basis. This is not a real problem.

"Not catering to it" and "refusing to allow anyone to build a solution, even if they're willing to put in the resources" are very different. On Android, if Google's wallet thing has a limitation I don't like, I can easily use another NFC payment app.

Also, this isn't a missing feature but an arbitrary limitation, so again, Apple doesn't need to "cater to it", just raise an int in the source code from 6 to 20 or whatever.

> Also, this isn't a missing feature but an arbitrary limitation, so again, Apple doesn't need to "cater to it", just raise an int in the source code from 6 to 20 or whatever.

No, it's an element of the hardware design.

I imagine it might be a hardware limitation? I couldn't find any details about where it comes from. They might be storing private keys in physical hardware; but then why does each card has to have its own private key, why not share all of it together?

It's blatantly absurd to have that much extra security for something that's fundamentally insecure anyways.

"640k of memory should be enough for anybody"

I don't think "number of credit cards in your wallet" is subject to Moore's Law.

Why not? When you physically had to carry all of them around, it was simply impractical to have 20 different cards.

If you can add all of them to a tiny device, and they all come from just a few banks that provide a unified interface to manage 10 cards at a time, and/or set them all up for auto-pay, then why wouldn't you want to make the most out of all the offers and bonuses?

The entire system of credit card tie-ins is based on predatory debt practices. It's ingrained in US culture, but a lot of people on HN probably see it as a problem that shouldn't even have to be addressed in the first place. Facilitating the growth of the credit card ecosystem sounds like asking for trouble.

So, it's Apple's job to tell me how many cards I am allowed to have? And it's okay?

You can have as many cards as you like.

There are hardware limits on how many you can put in an iPhone, just like there are limits to how many you can stuff into a wallet. Most wallets won't fit 20 cards, either.

That's the whole purpose of the digital wallet.

I fail to understand how can anyone claim that an 8-card limit in a digital wallet on a 32GB+ device is reasonable, when you can literally store more cards than that even in an average physical wallet.

And, again, Android's NFC and Google Pay have no such limits.

Apple Pay cards are stored in a special piece of hardware. That the limit went from 8 to 12 in later devices implies it has fairly limited storage space.

Loyalty cards are unlimited. I have dozens of those.

It's just another over-engineered gimmick from Apple. 12 (10 to third-party at intro?) may be slightly better for an average user than 8 (7 to third-party at intro?), but it still means that you have to delete and re-verify cards all the time, which defeats the whole purpose of the extra security for the data.

In Android Pay and now rebranded as Google Pay all contactless was and is unlimited. You never have to delete any card. You only have to re-verify the cards if you switch devices. That's literally how a digital wallet is meant to be, if you ask me.

> but it still means that you have to delete and re-verify cards all the time

None of your comments seem to show any realization that this is not a problem almost anyone faces. I do not have to delete and re-verify cards all the time — you do.

It's only not a problem for Apple fans because they've learned to accept subpar products with gimmick features and misleading marketing. Plus, the anticonsumer features being sold by Apple as security requirements.

And I don't have to delete any cards either, because for my daily driver I use actual professional devices that run Android instead of the "Pro" gimmicks without Pro features that Apple makes. Apple Pay is useless, so they get what they deserve: $0.00 spend from me because I'm not using it just for one card when I can use all of my cards in Android.

It's mind boggling how people will go to such great lengths to defend such a silly 7-card limit. Or all these suggestions that imply that carrying 20 cards is impractical, when they literally all fit into any Google device of same size as an iPhone. This whole thread and the downvotes are really a travesty. You'd think people on HN would know better than ignore the obvious. But I guess Apple fans are toxic and stubborn regardless of the forum.

Casual reminder that you're not supposed to downvote comments you simply disagree with, but only comments that are incorrect or don't contribute to a healthy discussion. But the Apple fans don't seen to care about such etiquette, and the net score of anyone saying anything that's not positive of Apple appears to be in the negative even here on HN that's supposed to be free of such obvious bias and fanatism.

You are aware that 20+ is actually the magical number of accounts that you're supposed to have in your credit file to have the best credit score?

This is not even about credit cards. Debit counts, too. Say you have two bank accounts, an HSA account, one premium card, one business credit card, one everyday card, one… Oops, out of slots already!

It sounds like you're really happy with Apple products, and will simply change your life around them, instead of demanding something better. 6+ cards is probably already the average for many people.

Says who? I have great with only one credit card. The key to good credit isn't some esoteric process to game the system. Its having a good and long credit history.

But do you really need to add all of those 20 cards to your digital wallet? Just carry the cards with you if you care so much about min-maxing the credit score game.

If you're actively using you cards (churning [0]) then yes. The point of tap to pay is to prevent carrying all the cards, thus lightening your daily carry.

[0]: https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/what-is-credit-c...

So Apple and other manufacturers should optimize - and components should cost more - for the use case of _churning_, versus more everyday use?

People carrying all those cards to churn or min-max their rewards are already paying with the inconvenience of managing all those accounts.

What inconvenience?

All the Chase credits cards show up under a single login; you can pretty much simply login once a month a pay all 9 or 11 of them at once. Or setup auto-pay. Or change the due-date to be the exact same date for all of them, so you only have to login and pay exactly once a month.

I have all 11 of Chase credit cards in Google Pay. If I switch phones, they're already available for verification on the new phone, you don't have to type the whole number anymore. I keep all but 3 to 5 credit cards in a sock drawer; but I can still use any one of them 20 at any time thanks to Google Pay.

When I need to use any one of my 20 cards to make a purchase, simply scroll through and select, based on picture and/or description. If vendor doesn't accept contactless, simply use one of the 5 physical cards I do carry.

The only inconvenience is that it doesn't work on iPhone, and that's one of the reasons I don't use iPhone as a primary phone, because so many things don't work there.

Why would anyone want to carry 20 cards?

Why wouldn't you want to add all the cards you have to your wallet? Because your $699 iPhone doesn't support the feature?

I don't think you're meant to have 20+ credit cards though? I'm struggling to think of anyone I know with 6+ active cards they use for payment.

I'd hazard most people have two or three cards tops.

That's the whole point — I can add the ones I rarely use to Android Pay still.

For example, I have 11 Chase credit cards, and all of them are in Google Pay on Android. I almost never use the hotel ones; they simply provide other benefits for the annual fee, like the free hotel night for each annual fee renewal. But sometimes they do run bonus spend promotions, that's where once every year I can simply use those cards through Android/Google Pay on Android without having to worry about finding the physical card that I only use once a year.

I think what you're missing is that people, in general, don't do that kind of point chasing.

But the average is already what the limit on iPhone is.

This means anyone even slightly above average is already out.

Imagine if you weren't allowed to wear tall jeans just because you're above average. That's what Apple does on the technology front.

I have the best credit score possible and only 2 credit card accounts. Empirically, there is no relationship between having large numbers of credit cards and having the best credit score.

You do realise that the common understanding of a “credit score” is complete bollocks right?

There's no single magic number thats your credit score, other than the one credit reference agencies provide, which no bank worth their salt uses, making that number meaningless.

Banks buy credit files from reference agencies, which contain hundreds of different data points for each individual. Then the bank use their own internal models to calculate credit risk, or identify customers they like. That model will be different at every bank, and for every class of product they sell.

If this wasn’t true, then there would be no differentiation between lenders, other than interest rate. Leaders use their own secret sauce models to help them identify and classify specific groups of individuals that meet their risk appetite. And they won’t just be optimising for repayment or profit, they’ll also be looking to ensure their loan book is highly diverse. Ensuring they’re not overexposed to big events (like, say, a global pandemic), which might disproportionately impact a subset of customers (such as people working in hospitality).

So the idea that 20 cards is some magic number for a good “credit score” is just crap. And grossly underestimates both the diversity and complexity of credit decisioning.

Well, yeah, but it's 20 accounts over a period of 7 to 10 years, which represents 2 accounts per year.

That basically represents the idea customer for a bank.

You have "like 20 different credit cards"? I live in Europe and I don't know anybody who would have more than 4-6 cards total. Granted, it's an anecdotal proof, but I really have hard time imagining any of my friends having more than 8 cards in their wallets. Is it somehow a US thing?

My Danish bank has to tell customers that "it is a good idea to have at least 2 cards, as you will otherwise have a hard time if your only card gets blocked for some reason".

So in Denmark many see no reason to more than a single card.

BTW. We don't have a concept like "credit score" at all.

I'm not in the US (HK) but me and a quite a few people I know have a dozen cards or more. I only regularly use 2-3 of them but the rest are useful for various occasions.

eg, Card A has no overseas transaction fees and has good exchange rate so I use it when travelling. Card B is same but I set a ridiculously low credit limit so I can use it in dodgy souvenir shops without worry. Card C gives airport lounge access. Card D gives free magazine and bottled water in the airport post-security areas. Card E grants access to clubhouses that are normally members-only, which I use for business meetings. Card F gets discounts for movie tickets, Card G to H gives free coffee upgrade from different chains, etc. And then there are a bunch that was pushed onto me when I got mortgage or a investment funds, that I never bothered to cancel since there's no annual fees and occasionally they'd have a promotion where it's actually useful.

I wouldn't want to carry all these physical cards, so I don't have them "in my wallet" per se, which is why it's nice to be able to add them all to my phone.

Exactly! The Chase cards I've mentioned are actually different, too, and give different benefits. I don't even churn them per se — there's still a benefit to keep all of them open longer term, because either there's no annual fee, or the AF is worth the benefits. Plus you get extra credit score benefits for the age of accounts.

Maybe? Getting a bunch of cards works out in your favor. Costco card nets me 4% back on gas everywhere and 2% in store and extends the warranty on things. Southwest card nets me miles for flying, Chase cards get me points on certain things, etc. Suddenly you have tons of cards you cycle through to max out rewards to play the game. Also spread out your credit so you don't load up a single card with a heavy purchase.

>Maybe? Getting a bunch of cards works out in your favor. Costco card nets me 4% back on gas everywhere and 2% in store and extends the warranty on things.

That's one way of looking at it. The other is that debt is priced in everything and you're just recouping part of it.

Am I supposed to just stop eating food and buying gas? I don't understand what you're trying to say. If the alternative is pay cash and not get these benefits the only other logical reason for your statement is that I have a choice in the matter to not do these things.

No, what I'm trying to say isn't that your decision-making is flawed, but that there's little decision-making involved and that you're driven into that path by the way the system is structured in the US. You guys are being forced into a situation where the most rational decision is to have a dozen credit cards to optimize for an arcane rule-set.

It's pretty f*cked.

It's not uncommon to be able to collect more value from the rewards than what it costs for the merchant to accept the credit card.

For example, it often costs 3% or less to accept payment for a merchant, but there are many cards which offer rewards that can be valued at 7.5% cashback, or even higher values if you're into chic travel.

For example, many people have more than one of the same card, e.g., Chase Freedom is a popular example. By having 3 cards, you can increase the quarterly limit on the product by 3x — similar to using extra threads on a multicore CPU — it's still the same system, so there's no extra inconvenience. Since they're all from the same issuer, having any number of Chase cards is a fixed cost for the user, because all of them appear in a single account login, and can also be set to have identical due dates, too. Likewise, Google Pay and Chase have no limits to the number of cards you can add to a digital wallet, so, it works out there, too.

It's amazing how so many iPhone users project the perceived inconvenience of this approach, but there's actually no inconvenience for Android users, since Android's NFC is open and doesn't have any limits.

Also don't forget AARP is open to everyone. I'm 33 and a member.

If you're maximizing like this, though, you're likely to still have a small handful of daily drivers - a 2% general purpose card, a dining/grocery card, maybe a gas card.

My airline and hotel cards aren't in Apple Pay because they're largely worthless in-person. Same for my Amazon credit card; 5% back on everything Amazon, but I don't need it physically with me ever.

Sure, but the point is, do I want to carry 20 cards with me, when I can carry one phone? Similar to the Coin card RIP. I need my southwest card, costco, chase, chase debit, apple card, amex, etc on my person, just to name a few.

That's six, and you probably need the physical card for the debit for ATM access anyways. If you're in the Chase ecosystem, you're probably better off using the Chase cards and transferring to Southwest as a transfer partner, too, as you'll get better earn rates on every category than using the airline card itself.

Quite a few cards are worth having, but only in the sock drawer most of the time.

Don't all ATMs support contactless these days? I used ATM with contactless. So, no, you don't. You just need a good phone that doesn't have arbitrary restrictions.

In the US? I haven't come across a single one yet.

Every Chase ATM I've used recently in California, Nevada, Colorado and Florida had contactless support on the ATM. I even pulled out large amounts of money via contactless without issue.

Yes. Many/most Wells Fargo ATMs have had contactless for several years now. Their Android app used to offer NFC contactless support so that you never had to even use Google's Android Pay to use contactless.

I think they originally didn't work with contactless Android Pay, maybe because the card number is different, but it's been fixed a few years ago. They also have the app-based ATM login, so I don't recall ever using the physical WF debit card in the last X years.

Every Wells Fargo ATM I've used for the last couple years accepts contactless.

I am in EU and have debit and credit cards in UK and EU and business account in EU. Also because in some places only Maestro is accepted I have maestro and MasterCard debit separately…

Because of travel I also have transferwise money anywhere card.

Yeah most people here have just one.

A lot of people chase sign up bonuses. Some credit cards have sign up bonuses equivalent to $1000+. So sign up for a year, and then cancel. Also our credit score systems consider number of open accounts, and anything less than 10 is considered as having too few accounts.

> anything less than 10 is considered as having too few accounts.

Source? I do not think any person reviewing people’s credit history would rate people higher for having 10 low barrier to entry revolving credit accounts rather than say 5 or even 3.

Different types of credit are weighted differently, so mortgage and auto and student and revolving credit card are not all seen the same, and I would not believe “more is better”, especially just for revolving credit lines for credit cards.

It's proprietary info, part of the scoring models. I think the magic number for best score is actually 20+, but it also counts the closed accounts over the last 7 to 10 years, too.

I recall seeing this in Credit Karma or maybe Experian's FreeCreditScore at one point (that you have to have 20 or 21 accounts for the best score), but cannot find it right now. I think it's a relatively well known number.

Credit Karmas business is collecting fees when people sign up for credit cards and lines of credit they push... they are hardly neutral.

There's diminishing returns (credit score wise) on open accounts once you're at three - ten is hardly necessary - and if you're churning, you don't need the churned card in Apple Pay long-term.

But if you are chasing sign up bonuses, that typically doesn’t happen all at once.

Assume you have a card for restaurants, one of travel, one for grocery’s, one for gas, one for entertainment and one catch all.

That’s 6. What else do you have a dedicated card for? 14 cards with sign up bonuses? All at the same time, each with minimum spending requirements to earn that bonus?

Let’s add some more. I have one card that pays $25 every quarter that I pay off in full every month so I use it once every month. I have a card with rotating categories. Even with multiple rotating categories I don’t see this going up past 12 cards.

Checking and savings debit cards, plus an HSA card add 3 more.

Sure, why do I need my savings account in my apple pay? Why did I put the plastic savings card into my physical wallet? Because that's where all of my other plastic cards are.

"The digital wallet should be able to hold all of my cards, even the ones I use infrequently" would certainly be my expectation.

So, basically, you're telling me I'm better off NOT storing my Hyatt, Marriott and IHG cards in my digital wallet only because I use them once every few years? Why exactly is that? Why not store all the cards in the digital wallet?

It's actually a really good idea, because it's a different account number they gets stored on the device, so, even if your hotel card is compromised because of the hotel leak, the copy in Google Pay will remain active and available. So, I could use it right away on the once-every-two-years bonus category without any extra hassle.

Lol the US has a really weird credit rating system.

Here having no credit cards is best. Because not having to loan shows having the ability of being responsible financially.

Note: here in Europe we get no rewards or anything on credit cards. It's viewed more as a liability, not a virtue.

In fact my credit cards cost money in stamp duty, they don't ever gain me any.

Yep. That makes more sense. But here, they are basically looking at your ability to manage credit "responsibly" by looking at your payment history, and utilization, among other things.

So say if I spend $3000 a month, and pay it off every month in full, and my total credit limit is $10,000, they will ding me regardless of my payment history, because my utilization (30%+) is considered high. So if I want to maximize my credit score, it behooves me to get more cards (easiest way to increase total credit), and spread out the payments among them.

I have more than 8 cards, but wasn’t aware this limit was even a thing because there’s no reason for some of them to be added to Apple Pay or carried around. Like the Amazon prime card, which exists only to be used on Amazon or various rotating category cards, of which typically only one or two of are useful at any given time and are used almost exclusively online.

Not to say there’s no legitimate use case for 8+ cards in Apple Pay, but I’m having a hard time envisioning it.

The ONLY card I have in Apple Pay is my Amazon Prime credit card. It’s the only credit card I have (other than my corp Amex, which is used once every few years for work). Every purchase gets you dollars on your Amazon account, so I actually use those rewards (versus the other “points” or “miles” I’ve had over the years and never used).

To the story itself: we’re at an interesting junction where your “phone” is absolutely a company’s product and they should be able to define the experience, but also becoming an essential utility in many societies where certain limitations are harmful. I’m still unsure where I land on some of these cases.

> Every purchase gets you dollars on your Amazon account, so I actually use those rewards (versus the other “points” or “miles” I’ve had over the years and never used).

Well good for you. But there are tons of cards that give $ directly in your bank account instead of Amazon account and at a better rate as well. e.g. Chase Freedom has 5% cashback categories every quarter that can be converted into real dollars at 1:1 rate. So...

5% back on Whole Foods purchases too. If you don’t go to Whole Foods then I agree there’s no point to keeping it in the Apple Wallet.

Doesn't Amazon Prime card have benefits at Whole Foods Market, too? They do accept contactless.

I find this pretty funny - I can't imagine carrying more than two cards around with me on a daily basis. In fact one is just a backup.

I do of course have many more cards; one of the downsides of the credit system in the US is how you have to game it to improve your credit. But for the most part those stay in the drawer.

Exactly, I carry and regularly use only 3 physical cards. The rest of the 20 or so cards I only carry in Google Pay, with the physical cards staying in the drawer and which I only ever use for the 3-digit number when I verify Google Pay on a new phone.

> How's such a low limit good for the consumer?

Because having it in hardware means it fetches faster. That’s why I use Apple Pay. The other apps are slower than swiping.

That's just not true. If it's stored in some special secure memory, it's probably actually slower than the general memory on Android.

Android's contactless doesn't require network connectivity. You can switch and use any of the added cards without having any network connection.

Is it? It works literally instantly on my Android phone. The transaction is over before my phone gets even close to touching the terminal.

No, but some avid Apple fans will do some epic technical mental gymnastics to try to make the point that iPhones must always be better and faster at every operation.

Hmm.. If anything I would assume the only potential benefit is that it might be more secure?

8 cards is not many?? I'm doing just fine with 2 and that's because I'm from one country and live in another :) most people I know have just one

What would you do if it's declined or the number is compromised?

I stopped carrying cash like 10 years ago. Even banks themselves recommend having more than one card just in case an issue occurs, to ensure you're not left stranded.

It sounds like you're big on churning/optimizing rewards but I believe that you represent a tiny proportion of the population. The average US consumer has 4 credit cards (I only have one), so 6-8 slots seems like plenty.

What about debit cards? So, basically, you're leaving just one or two slots for anyone who's above average?

Seriously more than 6 cards? More than 8 if that includes apple? Either some flyertalk point collector or someone heading for troubling times when the credit runs dry

why woukd you need so many cards?

I just need one debit card and thats it.

I have also a credit card that is needed by car rentals. And use it only there.

And I don't carry around my card because it is something I can forget. And I always carry a phone, so why have two if I need only one. Not to mention limits on pinless payments are higher in Google/Apple pay.

In the US, I've even had bank representatives during a fraud alert call tell me I always need more than one card in case one is restricted in any way. (Presumably from different banks/issuers, too, but even a single issuer is also better than nothing.)

What would you do if you need to rent a car, but your bank is down, and cannot authorise the payment?

The cards I have actually pay me back in rewards for having them. Why would I NOT have as many as they'll give me?

Most of my 20 cards come from just 3 issuers (Chase being the one who gave me the most cards), so, it's not even like it's even an issue from the management perspective, because each card is free (or even net negative cost) to own and operate, and it costs about the same amount of time to service them by the dozen as it would take to service just one of them.

> What would you do if you need to rent a car, but your bank is down, and cannot authorise the payment?

This is end-of-the-world type scenario, you can prepare but should you go always prepared for it?

> The cards I have actually pay me back in rewards for having them. Why would I NOT have as many as they'll give me?

OK, that might be some countries specific, but in my country debit/credit (debits are way way more popular here) there are usually no rewards for paying and juggling cards to save 1-2% is not worth it - had once such card, after 6 months they resigned from such rewards and choosing card to use even on phone is a PITA instead of using the default one.

And this was just an exception, usually you don't get rewards unless you have an expensive credit card that gives you mile rewards, but for that you really need to use that card everywhere to make it worth it - so again no need for other cards.

This is EU-PL specific point of view.

A single bank being down is definitely NOT the end of the world, provided you personally do have alternative accounts.

I think a few years ago one UK bank had a downtime of a few days on their payment network. Wasn't that limited to a single bank? If you don't have to pay an annual fee for a credit card, why would you not at least have a few, to avoid such a scenario?

Plus, bank-specific individual account lockouts are far more common worldwide, or customer service and unlock department might be having technical issues. None of this is the end of the world for anyone who has several credit cards.

By writing "end of the world scenario" I mean that it happens so rarely that there is no need to prepare for that unless you are a prepper.

I use a single bank for the last 15 years, there was no issue with it that would cause me to not be able to use my money.

They usually have scheduler work during some weekend nights, and I don't remember any large scale issue besides that - for sure I didn't have a scenario where I was without money.

For such scenario it is better to have some cash (which I do, but for other reasons - e.g. paying nanny or some workers that don't accept card payments).

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