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Does anyone actually know anyone who drinks more than 2 drinks every day? The only people I knew like that were homeless, and I was more concerned about other issues with them, than the drinking (which was more of a symptom than a cause, imo).

Am I naive for thinking that everyone knows that Alcohol is not good for them? Funding research into it seems like a waste of money, since I also believe that people should be 100% free to ingest whatever they want. You can't ban alcohol, its too easy to make. I barely drink, but its undeniably important to our culture.

e: Apparently I am quite naive. My crowd is more likely to have cannabis addictions than alcohol.

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It's pretty easy to go over two units in a day if you drink casually and aren't paying attention. Checking a handy online chart, 2 units of red wine is 70% of an US measuring cup - 167ml. So if you thought a "cup" (as in measuring cup) of wine was fine, you'd be over 2.

A bottle of 5% beer is defined as 1.7 units, therefore a bottle of 6.5% or 7% craft beer would be well over 2 units.

I was reading https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/overview-a..., which looks a little different than your chart, but the craft beer thing (imho) is dangerous (and I love craft beer).

Most of the beers I like are 7.5%, except stouts which are 10-12%. They also come in large 16oz cans. Two of these is almost 4 drinks. "Craft beer enthusiast" can start to approach heavy drinker very quickly.

16oz = 473mL. Now that's out of the way…

I often socialize with a Belgian guy, and he will choose similarly strong Belgian beers, but will almost always split the bottle with someone else. I think that can would probably be split three ways — it is equivalent to 2½ to 3 reasonable glasses of wine.

Sometimes that means drinking less, but it might also mean each person tries a wider selection of beers.

(A deleted comment asked for a "European" view, and I should make clear this is not a unified European view. That's impossible, as drinking culture varies massively between countries, by drink, culture, law and tax.)

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/alcohol-support/calculating-alc...

Here was the reference I used. Small glass of red/white/rosé wine (125ml, ABV 12%) 1.5 units Bottle of lager/beer/cider (330ml, ABV 5%) 1.7 units

Oh, and wow. 16oz = 473ml (had to look that up)

473ml*0.12 = 57ml of alcohol (!) - so almost 6 10ml units in a single can??? so two of those 12% stouts would be 11.4 units! Ouch... Yeah. Maybe switch to one of them as a special treat once in a while. :)

Your numbers are off. Based on your link, a 12oz 5% beer is one drink so a 16oz 7.5% is 2 drinks (1.5 * 4/3) and thus two of those is exactly 4 drinks.

A measuring cup of wine is obviously more than a standard drink.

In England, pubs usually sell "small", "medium" or "large" glasses of wine, which are 125mL, 150mL and 250mL. ([1] for good evidence for this, that you can buy measures for it. There's also a law [2].)

But the comparisons in this discussion are all confused, as the first person wrote "US measuring cup" but used UK alcohol "units" (which are 10mL = 6g), but the US "standard drink" contains 11g = 18mL alcohol.

UK units are nicer to calculate, as an example 150mL glass of 13% wine contains 150 × 13 ÷ 1000 → 1.95 "units" alcohol (19.5mL).

But the US standard drink is probably nearer to what people actually consider one drink. The UK site shows that typical drinks are nearer 2-3 units [3].

[1] https://www.wineware.co.uk/professional-stainless-steel-thim...

[2] https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/sp...

[3] https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/alcohol-support/calculating-alc...

Yeah, sorry, I was trying to use the "measuring cup" for familiar reference purposes. The 10 ml of alcohol measure in the UK (with 1-2 units being the "safe" range) definitely seems a lot clearer and easier to approximate if your drink has an ABV % to me than the "standard drink which is all over the place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_drink

"For example, in the United States, a standard drink contains about 14 grams of alcohol." "Different countries define standard drinks differently. For example, in Australia, a standard drink contains 10 grams of alcohol,[4] but in Japan, one "unit" contains approximately 20 grams."

But, ok, yeah, I'm sorry. I'd perked up and replied to parent because the "2 standard unit 20ml limit" as "safe" seems to show up in a bunch of studies, and interpreted "2 drinks" as that. But if he meant US standard drink that would be a 1.7*2 units (or 2 5% beer bottles), which is a bit harder to hit (but also firmly in unhealthy territory). That said, as another person noted, you can blow through that with a high ABV craft beer really easily (or an overly full glass of wine).

It's a very large glass of wine, yes. That said, I've been in restaurants with large wine glasses that generously fill them.

I guess if you're paying by the bottle who cares. Ensures more consumption?

And, was more noting how people could deceive themselves. I just fetched one of the large wine glasses from the kitchen. Filled but well below the rim (maybe a couple of cm below) it was 2 cups of water (so 6 units!) - I emptied out the water and filled it with 1 cup of water (so well over the 2 units) the glass was less than half full. Visually looked about a third of the way up the glass due to the curve.

Yes I do. And they don't think it is a health problem at all. Even working in tech in downtown SF, there would be happy hours all the time and free-flowing booze. I told myself I was a "social drinker" but found myself at 2-4 drinks every single workday. So Monday is a python meet-up with drinks. Tuesday is someone's birthday and also Taco Tuesday so we all go out for tacos and drinks. Wednesday is some alumni event downtown with drinks. Thursday is my non-work friends' "Thirsty Thursday" drinks. Friday is the unofficial company-sponsored happy hour where the managers bring out Whisky at 3-4pm.

All of a sudden, I was on the road to alcoholism, just by trying to fit in and be a little more extroverted. And the booze certainly helps someone who is anxious and introverted do exactly that.

Alcoholism/Functional alcoholism is fairly pervasive. I'd say you're either naive or your circle of family and friends are saints.

Yes, I know several people that fit that description by much more than 2 drinks every single day.

I sure do. There was a time in my life where I was getting properly drunk every single night for years and held down a programming job the whole time (and I still do!). I know several colleagues who drink far more than two drinks a day and are all productive and well liked at their jobs (all ate in their late-30s to mid-60s).

Sometimes people spend years trying to find the right prescription drug to quiet their daemons (with awful side-effects along the way) but oh so often, good ol’ over-the-counter alcohol JustWorks.

> Does anyone actually know anyone who drinks more than 2 drinks every day?

Both my parents, who were successful professionals, did this.

I wasn't even aware it was abnormal.

Yes, a few of my friends and none of them are homeless. Granted the number of drinks they do consume has gone down as we've all become older.

Separately, when I was in the army, and much younger, we all consumed significantly more than 2 drinks day and were still high performers at our job.

in the beginning of the pandemic i was drinking probably half a bottle of wine a night which is probably ~3 glasses. the stress of everything, being stuck at home with 3 young children, etc. took actually a while to kick the habit. now i just have a few friday night and over the weekend. but during that time i still went to work and was my normal dad self, just after the kids went to be drank a bit. i think you can do some moderate drinking without being homeless although i do feel much healthier now that i don't drink much during the week

Half a bottle (375mL) of 12% wine is 45mL of alcohol, or 4.5 UK "units", or 2½ US standard drinks.

  750 mL ÷ 2 * 0.12 = 45 mL = 4.5 "UK units"
  45mL * 0.789g/mL ÷ 14 = 2.54 "US standard drinks"

Quite a few people average one or two normal-person-defined "drinks" of alcohol per day. However, one normal-person drink of alcohol is very probably two or more scientists'/regulators' "drinks", because those are—for reasons I can't fathom unless the intent is to mislead people to believe their drinking is healthier than it is—so tiny that very few people would consider them one entire serving.

The short answer is 1 in 5 people in the US drink more than 2 drinks per day on average.

I know many people who fall in the second from the top decile of drinking (i.e. between 2 and 10 drinks a day). Some of the people who I think are in this group are probably actually in the top decile (above 10 drinks a day) and conceal the real quantities they consume

Let me put it this way, 75% of alcohol is sold to people who drink more than 10 drinks per day and this group comprises 10% of the US (the top decile of drinking.) Given the numbers it is pretty clear that a strong majority of this group is not homeless.

Eastern European here, but I spent most of my adult life in the UK. Almost every person I know drinks a few beers or shots a day. 2-3 on a normal, uneventful day, and a about 5-8 drinks when meeting up with family/friends etc, and 10-20+ drinks on a night out.

None of them show physical symptoms yet, all highly functioning people, but I suspect that is mostly due to their youth (20-40).

I personally went teetotaler about a year ago. Drinking is loads of fun and I miss it, but I appreciate a steady mood now way more than the ups and downs of alcohol induced euphoria, then potential anxiety etc.

It takes about 10 years for full blown alcohol dependency to develop, I feel that's the one unspoken truth about alcoholism. It's a slow descent.

> Am I naive for thinking that everyone knows that Alcohol is not good for them?

I think people definitely understand that heavy drinking (e.g. more than 2 drinks per day) is bad for you. The question is really about the impact of moderate drinking (1-2 drinks) where the science is unsettled, and people have differing opinions. Answering this was the goal if this particular study.

> moderate drinking (1-2 drinks)

I really feel like moderate drinking is a poor standard invented by the industry to prevent loss of sales due to science, and ultimately an oxymoron not unlike safe cigarette, clean coal.

Though alcohol is out of the drinker's system within 24 hours, what that drink does to their system takes a month to play out. Yet someone who has had strictly 1-2 drinks a day for decades is somehow a moderate drinker? If a drinker hasn't gone a single month without a drink since their junior year of high school, I believe the more accurate label is alcoholic.

I’m shocked you have a wide enough circle of friends to include homeless people but not, like any craft beer enthusiast.

After I graduated from College in 2020, I humbled myself and got a job at Ralphs so that I could make rent payments. I worked at one across from a major park in Los Angeles so I just happened to get to know a lot of homeless people.

I was in engineering school so many of my friends at the same intellectual caliber were more interested in robots than partying, but even the more enthusiastic drinkers would only drink that much if we were partying.

Yes... 1 glass of wine per meal is not crazy. Adds up to 2 drinks a day and that's not counting apéritif or any after-dinner drinks.

Yes. Admittedly they both work in bars/breweries.

It'd be interesting to see the experience of folks in continental Europe, where I gather wine with meals is much more commonplace.

I have known people who believe that "moderate drinking" is actually beneficial to health - something that has been shown to be untrue when controlling for socio-economic factors.

I believe people should be free to chose to drink too, but alcohol is truly in the "culture", like you said. Very few clearly harmful activities like that are part of any culture and that is what makes it important for us to educate society about this. I believe that alcohol should come with the same level of warning as cigarettes do, but the society is not there yet.

There was a meta-study a year and a half ago. It seemed to indicate that the supposed beneficial effects could be explained by moderate drinkers tending to exercise more and generally make sound health decisions. The study seemed to indicate that the safe number of drinks is one or two PER WEEK. It seems that zero is the number of safe drinks per day.

Such a strong belief that moderate drinking is beneficial.. "It gets the heart running". How to explain that it's not beneficial? How to show a study and have people believe in said study? Which study did you refer to?

This one: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

I haven't personally managed (or even tried) to convince anybody because people feel personally attacked when their preferences are questioned, especially when these people believe themselves to be "scientifically-minded". I think everybody has to discover this on their own.

I'm not and have never been an alcoholic. But I have have family members that are (or rather were, before they died from it) and often felt that it's something that I could easily slip into myself if I didn't make a conscious effort to avoid all non-social drinking. So alcoholism is something I have spent some time researching.

> Does anyone actually know anyone who drinks more than 2 drinks every day? The only people I knew like that were homeless

My uncle died a couple years ago. He was a functional alcoholic and workaholic for almost his whole life, until his age caught up with him and he couldn't work anymore. Then he just became an alcoholic. He was a multi-millionaire when he died, so he could have afforded the help if he wanted it and could have admitted to anyone (not least of all himself) that he had a problem.

Alcohol itself is not a problem. Alcohol ADDICTION is a very serious problem that does not get anywhere near the attention and seriousness that it should.

> Am I naive for thinking that everyone knows that Alcohol is not good for them?

Yes. And of those who know, many simply don't care and value the buzz more than the health downsides. Or feel helpless to stop due to the grip of addition. Or are so far gone that they secretly hope for an early death.

> You also can't ban alcohol.

I agree that a flat-out alcohol ban would be a failure. It was already tried and not only did it not work and caused all kinds of strife, it essentially gave rise to organized crime. If it was tried today, it would look identical to the War on Drugs which did nothing to help society, lined the pockets for various government organizations, contractors, and politicians, and filled prisons with non-violent offenders.

> I barely drink, but its undeniably important to our culture.

I'll agree that it is "important" in the sense that it is omnipresent in many people's daily lives. Even if I don't drink regularly, many friends, families, and neighbors do. People drink on the TV shows I watch. Co-workers make jokes about how many beers it takes to debug a particular program. People I know die directly or indirectly from it.

But is it a necessary part of any culture? Absolutely not. And just to be clear, I'm not arguing for a ban or any other method, but when I ask myself whether the world would be better off without mass alcohol consumption, the answer is an unequivocal yes.

> Am I naive for thinking that everyone knows that Alcohol is not good for them?

Yes, extremely. Aside from the fact that I know plenty of people in my extended family who drink more than 2 drinks per day, the vast majority of my family clings to the "a drink a day is better for you than none".

I’d highly recommend you actually do the calculation of what a “standard drink” is. You might be surprised. In my garage fridge is a pint sized can of alcoholic Kombucha at 7% ABV. Higher than most beers, for sure, but not unusual for some craft beers in my experience. Back of the envelope calculations has that at 1.8 standard drinks, very close to the limit.

I've always wondered about this too. Seems like it would be cost prohibitive if nothing else.

During one stretch of my life where I was really stressed out I was having 2-3 glasses of wine a night for about 3 straight months. Aside from that, I can't imagine having more than a glass or two of something every week or so.

You mean for cost-prohibitive homeless people? For people with decent incomes, 3-5 drinks a day is easily affordable. Beer is < $1.00/drink[0] and Trader Joe's sells bottles of wine for $2.00[1].

A single coffee costs $4 before tip most places I've visited in Austin.

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/01/how-much-a-case-of-beer-cost...

[1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/01/21/two-buck-chuck-return...

A bottle of wine contains about 6 servings, so if you buy $6 wine, that's around a dollar a serving, $60/month is not cost prohibitive for many people.

My local beverage store has lots of wine choices < $5, many have pretty good reviews (4+ stars out of 5)

Though if you're looking for the best bang for the buck, they have a 1.75l vodka for $8.99 - at 40 servings per bottle, that's about 50 cents a day for 2 servings a day.

Alcoholics tend to not buy super expensive drinks. It's mostly low-end cheap vodka purchased in 1.75 liter bottles in my experience.

I know plenty of people who will regularly consume a bottle of wine a night, or a 6-pack a day. It is very common.

Plenty of people. Once you start paying attention, you see many many casual alcoholics. I'm not sure why you're being downvoted because it's a common misconception as others have pointed out how much constitutes a drink and how much we're actually drinking.

"Funding research into it seems like a waste of money..."

If, as you say, you cannot (and should not) ban alcohol, then finding out how bad it is, and in what ways, is somewhat important.

People don't know that alcohol is one of the strongest poisons we use. Kills about 260 people per day in the US. Please fight for the health of your friends.

Dihydrogen monoxide is way worse...

Joking aside, the dose makes the poison. On a society level, alcohol is a problem, but on a personal level, it is still unclear how much of an effect moderate drinking has, and in which direction it goes, that's the topic of the article.

If you want a strong poison most of us use, take acetaminophen. More than 12g and it can kill you by liver failure. It is the leading cause of acute poisoning, and yet, it is very safe at normal doses (1gx3/day).

I'm a light drinker (a beer a month range, and months without).

That said, I'm interested in the moderate drinking results.

Some alcohol intake is perhaps self medication for other issues - ie, stress etc. Perhaps there is a small positive there - though a larger positive would be to try and solve root causes?

Not - HN has gotten a bit downvote heavy these days - don't take it too seriously.

> Apparently I am quite naive. My crowd is more likely to have cannabis addictions than alcohol.

Where are you located? My impression --- which I'd like to see better evidence for --- is that in the US, heavier drinking is more prevalent in higher social classes on the East Coast than the West Coast.

I can think of half a dozen people who drink more than 2 a day. Heavy drinking is very common in the UK and Europe, Scandinavia especially in my experience. I stopped drinking a year ago because I was in the habit of having 4 and conversations like this convinced me I was killing myself.

Two drinks is not as much as you think.

I'm 5'11", 235lbs - I could stand to lose a little weight, but I've got a lot of muscle mass. I can drink a standard 12-oz 5% beer with a meal and not even notice the alcohol.

I can do that at lunch and dinner and not be noticeably intoxicated at all.

To be honest, I know more that do than do not. Especially if you take weekend drinking and spread that out as an average throughout the week.

Like, every day, or on average?

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