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Comment by BiteCode_dev | Hacker News Reader

Apple does the same, no?

Apple is fine on macOS — changing your default browser is a simple setting. Their behavior on iOS, though (outright preventing installation of other browsers) should be illegal, IMO.

I think the OP was referring to the practice of "encouraging" users to sign up for iCloud, buy an Apple Watch, iPhone, iPad, Apple Music, Apple TV, Apple Arcade... and use Apple Sheets, Apple Mail, Apple News, Apple Maps, iMovie, Garage Band, etc.

I'm sure they would argue they're just providing a seamless experience for users, but I imagine there's a tiny bit of business interest in there as well.

Apple tries to sell you, but I feel like they are better on dark patterns. Whenever I use Windows, I feel like I have to be actively on-guard against the OS subverting my intentions. There are a lot of problems with the Apple ecosystem, but that isn't really one of them.

'Fine' is generous I would say, Big Sur likes to throw up notifications inviting me to 'try the new Safari' because FF is my default browser. That's not miles from the way MS is behaving with Edge.

Have you tried changing the default app for .docx files? It just does not work. Right click on a .docx file in Finder. Hold down the Option key and you'll see "Open With" change to "Always Open With". Select LibreOffice or whatever you want. OK, that file now opens with LireOffice. But no other. WTF?

This is no "simple setting" and is the same BS that MS does.

Select a file in Finder. Open the Inspector panel for that file ("Get Info" in the context menu, or Cmd-I). If necessary, expand the "Open With" section. Observe the presence of a "Change All..." button.

It's not particularly discoverable, but I think that's mainly because Apple's own UI designers have all but forgotten the NeXTSTEP UI heritage, so doing a Cmd-I on things is not as useful a habit as it once was.

If you right click and go to the open with menu and scroll to other, there's a checkbox with the finder window called "Always Open With". This way you don't need to remember which button to hold down.

Yes.

Ultimately though regardless of who is doing it, it is user hostile and needs to stop. Apple restricting browser engines on iOS doesn't somehow make Microsoft's steering and suppression of other browsers on Windows acceptable.

The US needs much better consumer protections.

Not really. In the Apple ecosystem, stuff either works or it doesn't. iOS doesn't let you install alternative browser engines. macOS does. Both of them let you use a browser shell of your choice.

None of this "you can install a browser, but we're going to lie cheat and steal to stop you" dark patterns nonsense. As a user, Apple just tells you No, and you get to decide if you want to live with that or not.

That same dark pattern exists on MacOS, even though it's less widely used https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28748596

I've never had any url open in Safari instead of the default browser on macOS.

see this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28748596

Not quite, no.

As a user, Apple allows you to change your default browser in both iOS and macOS quite easily.

As a developer you can build a browser on top of whatever rendering engine you want, as long as you want to use the built-in WebKit.

Crucially, they are plenty clear about what is, or isn't allowed (well, mostly — plenty of app review horror stories around here), and all of that happens in the interaction with developers. The user experience is always pretty decent, and you don't have to deal with this whole "do this in 10 locations" nonsense.

Oh, well, in that case it’s okay.

I'm not aware of any links that force open in Safari?

Go to the Finder and choose "See What's New in macOS" from the help menu. Always opens in Safari regardless of what the default browser is.

Confirmed. On my mac it opens https://help.apple.com/macos/big-sur/whats-new/ in Safari.

a recent macos installation fresh configuration does try to steer you towards using safari several times with popups and reminders.

Steering and forcing are two different things

On iOS, all links open in Safari because Apple doesn't allow any other browser. The "alternatives" are just wrappers.

So Apple is actually worse than Microsoft.

Third party browsers on iOS use the same web engine as Safari (WebKit) but critically, do not wrap Safari itself. In principle third party iOS browsers are no more wrappers of Safari than fully independent desktop Linux browsers built with WebKit like Epiphany/GNOME Web and Midori.

The various Chromium based browsers are much closer to being Chrome wrappers than, say, Firefox for iOS is a Safari wrapper because the latter has totally unique code for UI, interactions, password management, etc whereas the former is literally just Chromium with a few surface level changes.

Apple could stand to allow third party web engines either way (perhaps with strict performance requirements, to not destroy user batteries), but I think the distinction matters.

You get to choose which app is default app in iOS 15 and 14 as well I believe and maybe even before that. Not forced, just the default.

I may be mistaken but I recall reading several times that even though you can choose another app as the browser, all those apps are forced to use WebKit as the engine.

That’s correct, but the engine restriction doesn’t force people to use Safari and it’s possible to use either Chrome or Firefox front-ends. Apple wants to control the browser engine for a couple reasons:

- if you’re charitable: security.

- If you’re uncharitable: blocking the ability to undermine the App Store.

I know. I simply wanted to highlight the likely cause for parent's message downvotes, as none of the downvoters did it and things went quite sour in the sibling thread.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com