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Comment by ethanbond | Hacker News Reader

People are much less concerned about the unarmed rednecks taking selfies than they’re concerned about the armed folks searching the grounds for certain representatives, the people planting pipe bombs around DC, and anti-government militias comprised heavily of former military and law enforcement. Oh yeah, said militia members stashed guns at a nearby hotel (according to their own testimony and video footage).

This could’ve gotten way uglier and who knows what the ramifications would be. Let’s not fixate on the selfies.

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Well, I am going to fixate on the selfies because there were a bunch of dimwits taking selfies.

“Armed” folks armed with what? Yeah, I’m pretty sure the most powerful nation ever to occupy the earth wasn’t going to fall to a bunch of pitchfork wielding social media posting hayseeds demanding to have Frankenstein’s monster handed over to them.

Just pipe bombs, loaded hand guns with high capacity magazines, boxes of Molotov cocktails, bear spray, tasers, zip ties.

Note that most crimes are still crimes even if you suck at committing them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/03/04/fac...

Hundreds of dipshits taking goofy selfies and you post a fact check that talks about 3 people charged with weapons outside the capital grounds and a single person on the capital grounds that had a holstered weapon. Also someone using a flag pole to gain entry.

Let’s agree that at least a thousand people breached the capitol. So at least 99.96% of the crowed were angry pitchfork waving villagers and .04% were some dorky Van Helsing wannabes.

In what world does that constitute a threat to topple to most powerful country ever to exist on this earth? It’s not.

A world that’s governed by complex legal codes, procedures, and norms with a variety of loopholes and undefined states. One that’s not safeguarded by rah rah “we are most powerful country ever” therefore our bureaucracy is immune to bureaucratic failure!

We simply don’t really know what would’ve happened if e.g. the ballots were destroyed. They would’ve had to get duplicate ballots from the states. Would all the state election boards have stuck with their previous results now seeing an apparent opportunity to install their leader and feeling galvanized by the “fraud” of vote-by-mail?

It’s interesting how many people will complain about clear bureaucratic failure in basic day-to-day tasks like the DMV, and then imagine that the most complex bureaucracy in history is held together by patriot power and not, you know, bureaucracy, with all of its strengths and vulnerabilities.

The point is that this event is characterized as an insurrection and a threat to the the United States. It wasn’t.

If you want to shift the conversation to election integrity, that’s fine…but that was actually the whole point of the demonstrations. You have one group that felt that they had legitimate concerns about the election’s integrity. The other side downplayed those concerns, does not want to improve election integrity, and actually wants to erode it further.

I am pretty sure that if you want the bulk of America to feel that elections have integrity you should make it a priority and not downplay concerns just because your candidate won and I apply that standard to both parties since both are guilty over the last few election cycles.

To clarify, when I refer to ballots being destroyed I’m referring to electoral college ballots being destroyed by rioters during the Jan 6 insurrection. It wasn’t a coincidence that they were called to DC on that particular day when a normally extremely boring and mundane procedure is carried out. It has no symbolic value, it has no cultural value, it has no value except ensuring the legal, procedural basis for transition of power. That’s why it was attacked.

Yes, if that succeeded, it would’ve harmed the US.

In any case, your suggestion that the democrats “actually want to erode [election integrity] further” reveals a lot.

Does it? What exactly do you think it reveals? I’m not a Republican, and haven’t voted for a Republican for any office for decades. So what does that tell you?

It might reveal that I am not happy with the political party that once upon a time were liberal and good but are now just filled with power hungry intolerant authoritarians. At least the republicans don’t pretend that they are good people.

You're talking about a small group of Oath Keepers in an otherwise peaceful protest. But I'm curious, why do you think Stewart Rhodes was never arrested? Would it make more sense given the context that the boogaloos behind the Whitmer kidnapping plot turned out to be FBI agents, as did the leaders of other right-wing groups including the Proud Boys and Atomwaffen Division? Who does the right-wing terrorism scare serve?

Right-wing terrorism scare? We all watched angry mobs attempt to disrupt the peaceful transition of power on live TV. These are the same people who proudly fly the flag of literal traitors to our country and call the press the “enemy of the free state.”

If all it takes for your movement to attempt to kidnap elected officials or disrupt transfer of power is a few undercover agents nudging along, your movement is a huge problem.

> If all it takes for your movement to attempt to kidnap elected officials or disrupt transfer of power is a few undercover agents nudging along, your movement is a huge problem.

If it takes more agents then perpetrators to pull off your sting, and if the agents conceptualized, planned, financed, managed the operation, and participated in it…

Well, let’s just say I am going to be the wrong person to sit on your jury if you want a conviction.

You are aware that informant != agent, right?

They aren't strictly synonymous but, as you should know, in this context an "informant" is a kind of agent, both on paper and in practice. They aren't informants in a conventional understanding of the term, just feeding information back to the government. They receive training and are employed to proactively infiltrate and participate in criminal organizations much as any investigator would (or, in these cases, steer non-criminal organizations into criminality).

We all watched protesters demonstrate in a public building, and yes, disrupt the transition of power. Peaceful disruption of the government is the quintessential act of protest.

>call the press the “enemy of the free state.”

Criticism of media is terrorism?

>kidnap elected officials

That group was comprised almost entirely of undercover agents along with a couple of mentally ill people. The FBI orchestrated the entire thing.

>disrupt transfer of power

Again, a valid target for protest.

In a democracy, the results of a free and fair election are actually not a valid target of protest if your form of protest entails an attempt to overturn those results.

Feel free to disrupt traffic and make a scene elsewhere.

In a democracy, people should be allowed to protest if they believe an election is not free and fair, no? If not, why? This is a strange line in the sand that to my knowledge has never existed before in American history. People have protested and contested elections numerous times.

> Feel free to disrupt traffic and make a scene elsewhere.

Yes, disrupt the worker bees, not the queen.

Edit: it does seem strange that you wouldn't include some sort of disclaimer in this convo about your employer's stake in "counter-terrorism".

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