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Comment by ethbr0 | Hacker News Reader

The biggest thing shooting Tesla in the foot is plug standard. Eventually, they'll have to adopt CCS in the US and switch over their chargers.

Gas stations aren't iPhone power adapters. You can't sell more cars than GM + Toyota + Ford + Stellantis + Honda + Hyundai + Nissan. And eventually, they're all going to convert most of their lines to electric.

At which point, new charger installs use the standard. At which point, customers start asking whether they'd buy a car with a standard charger, or a Tesla.

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I also suspect regions like the EU will force Tesla to comply with a standard plug, not unlike how the EU is currently in the process of forcing Apple to standardize on it's iPhone charger connector.

they already do. EU Tesla's have a different (and standard plug) compared to North American Teslas

I thought EU was already forcing CCS for Tesla?

There is no rule that requires car makers to use CCS in Europe. Just the charging network providers. Nissan and Lexus are still selling brand new EVs with the CHAdeMO connector.

Tesla switched to CCS in Europe a couple of years ago:

https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n...

Tesla switched to CCS in Australia without being forced by our government. Completely voluntary.

IMHO Tesla shouldn’t just ship a dongle. They should put CCS + Tesla plugs in the charge port of all new North American vehicles. Even if the latter is hidden behind a second manual door. They already put dual sockets on Teslas in other world markets, so it’s totally doable.

Tesla does not have vehicles with dual DC charging sockets anywhere.

In China you see two plugs, but that's because one of them is for AC charging (China's gender-reversed Type 2 connector) and the other is for DC charging (China GB/T connector).

It's somewhat difficult and costly to put multiple DC charging sockets on a vehicle because you need additional high-voltage switches/relays and cabling. Each DC socket must be interlocked and isolated while the other is in use.

If the sockets are right next to each other, couldn’t the interlock be entirely mechanical? Pushing a connector into one socket disconnects the DC from the other socket.

> "I also suspect regions like the EU will force Tesla to comply with a standard plug"

Tesla already uses the standard plug in Europe and most of the world.

Countries and territories where Tesla use the Tesla connector:

  United States
  Puerto Rico
  Mexico
  Canada
  Japan
  South Korea

Countries where Tesla use the China GB/T connector:

  China (mainland)

Countries and territories where Tesla use CCS2:

  Austria
  Belgium
  Croatia
  Czech Republic
  Denmark
  Finland
  France
  Germany
  Greece
  Hungary
  Iceland
  Ireland
  Italy
  Luxembourg
  The Netherlands
  Norway
  Poland
  Portugal
  Romania
  Slovenia
  Spain
  Sweden
  Switzerland
  United Kingdom
  Taiwan [1]
  Macau
  Hong Kong
  Singapore
  Australia
  New Zealand
  Israel
  Jordan
  United Arab Emirates

[1] Tesla transitioning to CCS2 in Taiwan during 2021

Personally the biggest thing holding me back from buying a non-Tesla is the Supercharging network. Infrastructure for any other manufacture isn't there yet and its going to be a few more years before anything else is as good.

Electrify America is up to 600+ stations and covers much of the same key interstates as the Tesla network did when it was considered "good enough" for cross-country driving: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/

With the massive infusions of cash from VW's "dieselgate" EPA settlement, Electrify America has been moving very quickly, and it should feel useful today. Electrify America is still way more complicated than Tesla's network (in part because it still supports both CCS for everything new and ChaDeMo mostly in the US just for old Nissan Leafs) and still has a lot of room to grow, but as a network it is still very usable today not just years from now.

Shouldn't it be a few hundred dollars to have both?

(not that it's a good outcome, just feasible and not all that expensive)

Teslas can use standard chargers. And also superchargers.

Have read on this site that the charging experience is great at Tesla at quite poor everywhere else.

At which point, they'll make an adapter like Apple does.

Sounds like there's a market for a Tesla dongle

You'd also have to figure out how to circumvent the Supercharger station's DRM

It’s not so much DRM as authentication, seamless zero-user-interaction payment, safety, and charging protocols.

You’d also need a Tesla account with a credit card on file, and the ability for your vehicle to identify itself as the vehicle associated with that account.

Or… Tesla might just make it happen, in the future.

I feel like they will.

Eventually, the market for EV will be so large that they may as well try and get everyone they can on the chargers, the same way that iTunes on Windows was primarily to grab a huge chunk of the digital music market.

Supposedly Tesla already has one but they barely have capacity for there own fleet let alone everyone else’s and they are building superchargers at a rapid pace

Tesla switching to CCS would mean their customers get 4,683 extra charging locations without having to buy an adapter:

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html

Kind of a no-brainer for Tesla to switch to CCS.

The other charge networks are notoriously bad and many of them already support Tesla’s native plug.

No thanks, I prefer faster superchargers. But it’s handy that it’s possible to use pretty much every other charger, not to mention any outlet, as a backup when needed, or when sleeping for that matter.

> I prefer faster superchargers.

Teslas charge faster on CCS:

https://insideevs.com/news/507489/tesla-model3-charging-fast...

A little bit of how to lie with statistics there, but yes for certain Tesla models in certain continents using certain rare ultrafast versions of CCS2 with a certain state of charge, there is a certain window of time where the speed may slightly exceed certain Tesla superchargers (the current fastest version, admittedly, but faster ones are coming).

I'd gladly use any charger, if it's what is available, but do prefer Superchargers for their faster speed (although yes, there is that edge case you pointed to) and for the community of friendly fellow Tesla owners that you sometimes run into there.

> A little bit of how to lie with statistics there

Nope. No lie, just a flatter charging curve.

> the current fastest version, admittedly, but faster ones are coming

CCS chargers are already faster today than Tesla's promised future chargers. Today's fastest charging EVs use CCS.

> and for the community of friendly fellow Tesla owners that you sometimes run into there

Soon owners of all brands of EV will charge there. Tesla will put CCS plugs on the chargers and you'll be able to meet everyone:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...

Tesla switched to CCS in Europe a couple of years ago. It's time to switch to CCS in North America too.

I've got to say I've done a few long (>1000 mile) road trips in my Tesla and I've never once had to wait for a spot to plug in. There's also usually at least one other Tesla charging at the station. Which means they're successfully walking the line between underbuilt and overbuilt, capital efficient while also satisfying their customers. Most non-Tesla charging stations I've seen are under-utilized and often broken.

I think Tesla could build Superchargers faster if they wanted to. If you overbuild, the chargers will rot (the plugs can need maintenance and replacement from weather exposure after 5-10 years if for no other reason) and you're paying expensive utility connection fees.

That will charge slower and be an extra thing to buy and carry around. It's better to have a CCS plug on the charger and a CCS inlet on the car.

All other EV manufacturers have standardized on CCS in North America so there's not much value in Tesla not going CCS at this point. Doubly so because Tesla is supposed to be opening up its network to other brands:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...

Yes for non-Teslas.

Every US Tesla comes with a ccs adapter. Zero chance that any material segment of customer makes a buying decision based on the shape of the charge port connector.

Since when? I've never seen one and there are threads on Tesla owners' forums from literally minutes ago where people are still discussing the lack of factory adapters for J1772/CCS1.

Mine came with one in 2019. Never use it. There are at least 4 different J1772 plug types though so probably one of the others is what people are missing. The Tesla connection is slim and sleek compared to the ccs boat anchors

I think you're confusing the J1772 plug with CCS Type 1 Combo. The combo plug has J1772 on top and two extra contacts on the bottom for DC fast charging:

https://interchargers.com/plug/type-1/

This is CSS type 2 and supports up to 142 kW fast charging.

https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/charging-connectors

This is the US j1772 that’s limited to 19.2kW. https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter

The Tesla super charger network does 250 kw on the newest stations and they said they will roll out 300. Why would anyone want to limit their charge speed and have a bulkier plug doesn’t make sense I would guess long term us will adopt Tesla standard it is simply better.

Something being better does not mean it will win

Linux is objectively better than Windows, even for the desktop, Windows still wins.

Tesla has other issues around it that other manufacturers will simply not adopt the "Tesla Standard"

Most of them have already signed on to something else..

> The Tesla super charger network does 250 kw on the newest stations and they said they will roll out 300

The fastest CCS chargers in North America do 350 kW today. The CCS Megawatt Charging System will do 3.75 megawatts:

https://www.charin.global/technology/mcs/

> I would guess long term us will adopt Tesla standard

No. Everyone else has standardized on CCS Type 1 Combo for North America. Tesla will switch to CCS too.

J1772 adapters came with mine. And you can buy them on the Tesla site.

CCS, I would not use, because superchargers are so much faster and easier. Plug in, done. No extra cards, apps, face scan, login, etc.

CCS supports "plug & charge" technically, but right now it is between the manufacturers and the networks to arrange which cars support it. Obviously, Tesla doesn't right now have a reason to support "plug & charge" on CCS networks when they've got their own network. But on the flipside, Europe has several networks with CCS "plug & charge" working for a number of vehicles and Electrify America is just now starting to light up CCS "plug & charge" for interested manufacturers. (I believe the Ford Mach-E and F-150 Lightning both support it today, IIRC.)

Not only does it not come with a ccs adapter you can not even buy one from Tesla.

I guess you mean J1772. But CCS adapters are available from third parties.

Tesla drivers don’t need CCS though since the supercharger network is so good.

It's not so good everywhere.

Where I am there is one Tesla charging location (with 8 charging stations). It is roughly 20 minutes away from any of my usual work/shopping/dining destinations. The next closest superchargers are over 50 miles away.

Wall outlets also work, and available in many homes and apartments. They are slow of course but it’s been surprising to us how much we can get away with just a single 110 alternating for two cars.

They come with a J1772, not CCS Combo 1. Combo 1 is J1772 + some DC pins.

The DC pins are the desirable part. J1772 is limited to I think 19kWh and is considered L2.

CCS Combo 1 is very rare in North America.

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