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Comment by nvarsj | Hacker News Reader

I'll play devil's advocate. Your marriage doesn't sound like one of equals. You're doing a Masters while working full time I imagine. So who picks up the slack for household management? I'm guessing your wife. If you have kids, then it is even more unbalanced I imagine.

I know people in similar marriages - it works great, as long as the spouse is happy being the dutiful house wife. But I also know people in this situation who are now separated - usually the man/provider is completely blind sided when their ever loving, house wife says one day "no" and just walks out. They had no idea there was an inequality in the first place, and assumed their spouse is happy like this.

I personally believe that when marrying someone, "marry your equal" is incredibly important advice. Marry someone of similar earning power, with similar career and life accomplishments. This helps ensures a equal relationship that has the greatest chance of success.

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>Your marriage doesn't sound like one of equals. You're doing a Masters while working full time I imagine. So who picks up the slack for household management? I'm guessing your wife. If you have kids, then it is even more unbalanced I imagine.

You confuse 'equality' for 'symmetry', and this is extremely flawed.

Even in non-romantic teams, the entire purpose of cooperation is to perform different roles in parallel. This is fundamental to human existence.

>I know people in similar marriages - it works great, as long as the spouse is happy being the dutiful house wife. But I also know people in this situation who are now separated - usually the man/provider is completely blind sided when their ever loving, house wife says one day "no" and just walks out. They had no idea there was an inequality in the first place, and assumed their spouse is happy like this.

....and as long as the husband is happy being a dutiful provider.

Getting blind sided by a partner suddenly walking out? They assumed their partner was happy? This is almost a parody of a bad marriage.

>I personally believe that when marrying someone, "marry your equal" is incredibly important advice. Marry someone of similar earning power, with similar career and life accomplishments. This helps ensures a equal relationship that has the greatest chance of success.

IMO, this doesn't address the nightmare scenario you described in your second paragraph, and sounds more likely to make you vulnerable to it.

If you got blind sided by your partner because the two of you were 'assuming the other was happy', you started deeply fucking up years ago and making sure your partner was a close rival in earning career progression had almost nothing to do with it.

> "marry your equal" is incredibly important advice. Marry someone of similar earning power, with similar career and life accomplishments. This helps ensures a equal relationship that has the greatest chance of success.

Eh. You should marry someone you love and respect, but you are defining "equal" like "clone."

Personally, I am driven by knowledge, growth, ambition, etc. I used to think these are my values and looked for the same in women I dated. So I ended up dating a bunch of CEOs, a famous professor, etc. But while it was very interesting, it wasn't additive.

The woman I actually married is no slouch in earning and intelligence but the things she values are very different from mine. She values creating a home, family connections etc in a way that I didn't know to, but benefit from. It does mean we have a different natural division of labor at home etc but the bigger deal is that we both bring a lot that the other person needs to the table. Life is not without it's conflicts but it's working out much better than if I was stuck with another me

Why is equality determined by educational attainment? Seems to be the measure of “equality” for purposes of a romantic marriage should be personality and compatibility and not wealth or degrees earned.

An equal relationship is going to vary depending on who you ask, and as long as both partners agree, then you’re set.

I think that the comment was talking about raw amount of hours full time job + school takes. Which means there is very little remaining time for household chores (including kids and pets) meaning partner has to do almost all of them.

It was not about educational attainment, but about assumed silent expectation that partner does all the housework.

Let’s imagine there are 6 hours of housework to do daily. Only one partner is working on an income-generating job. Do they then come home and do “their fair share” of 3 hours of housework as well?

The benefits of the income are shared with the entire household and represent their contribution. It seems reasonable for the other partner to shoulder most of the housework (the benefits of which are also shared with the entire household). The opposite is what would seem unreasonable to me.

For clarity, I’m not saying the employed partner never has to wash a dish or put their dirty socks in the basket.

And this is why I would not marry someone with significantly higher income. Because that would mean, I do all housework and my job don't matter.

Unless explicitly arranged and agreed upon by both in advance, it is unfair to assume the partner should be doing it all and that you should be doing only stuff you enjoy.

Why would it mean you do all the housework and your job doesn’t matter? That’s only the case if your partner thinks your job doesn’t matter. It’s not a function of income difference, it’s a function of how much your spouse supports you in your endeavors.

You can still be equal partners even with vastly disparate incomes simply by treating each other as equals. It’s entirely in your control, as a couple.

If my wife wanted to work a job that earns a fraction of what mine does, I’d still split all the housework equitably because she is my equal no matter what job she works.

How high?

There is a point where you hire help and this becomes moot.

Below that point, it comes to how you want to solve the finance problem as a couple IMO: if both your salaries are required, then obviously it means a full split.

Anecdotally - my wife chose to remain home and help raise our child / take care of the home and this turned out to be a force multiplier for me. I don’t think I would’ve made it to where I am, made whatever I made, built all my time sink hobbies without that decision.

It comes down to communication and being truthful to yourself Re: why do you want that job? If it is a passion, you should go for it irrespective of the earnings. If it is just an income, you’re just working for a random person instead of your own family. That’s a tough line to cross, but it worked for us with enough comms.

No matter how high, honestly. Because even with maids, the underlying sentiment there is that I count for less. In case of conflict of interest, partner earning more means I automatically loose. "I earn more therefore I contribute more therefore I get what I want" is situation I would find pleasant. However, "I earn less, therefore I contribute less, therefore I have to suck it up and accept being second" is situation I would resent and dislike.

Your wife and you situation sounds like falling into "mutually agreed upon in advance".

Again I think there is a curve :)

There is a point beyond which earning potential stops being a differentiator: you both have enough that it doesn’t matter. I agree there will be some hard conversations to get out of the preset habits though.

Till the point where the earning is necessary for your lifestyle - I can see how the first and second concept will play out: but that’s the trade off you’re taking for the benefits I mentioned.

I do agree all of this is based on the mutual agreement part. I was just pointing out it isn’t as dire as you say :)

Indeed, if you're "keeping score" with compensation with your peers, colleagues, and friends, it might not be the healthiest thing to do, but I get it.

If you're "keeping score" in compensation with your life partner, that seems deeply unhealthy. I'd love for my partner to make some multiple of what I make; we could retire that much earlier.

> should be doing only stuff you enjoy

The vast majority of people don’t genuinely enjoy their 40 hours plus 6 hours of commuting to their income-generating job.

We do it because we like food with our meals.

Sure. And wast majority of people don't enjoy vacuum cleaning and other routine household chores. Most people, when they actually end up being at home whole day, doing those same routines every day end up depressed and demotivated.

People who loose their jobs, even if partner earns enough for them to not be in major stress, are unhappy after a week or too. They don't tend to be happy in the long term.

Many jobs and bosses sux. And people in them generally want better job rather then no job. They feel bad when being unemplyed long term.

Most employed people don't enjoy coming home to household work. No one, actually. That is why those are such frequent strain of relationship - cause people rarely like then.

That’s exactly the reason why I think that two adults facing around a total of 14 hours per day of mostly suckage have a more fair arrangement when that’s split around 8.5 hours for person 1 and 5.5 hours for person 2 rather than 11 hours for person 1 and 3 hours for person 2.

I really don't know what hypothetical are you building there. The original posts in thread did not assumend unemployed stay at home partner.

But I think that you really need new job. Cause mine is not 8.5 hours of suckage. People on this forums are not struggling miners in bad economy having no choice but to put up with abusive boss. (And I know miner who claimed he loved his job, but that is one guy).

Anyway, if it is about insisting one has to stay at home, I don't want to be the one stay at home. Because I would not like it. And I would also feel economically in trap - dependent and helpless in case of issues.

> and that you should be doing only stuff you enjoy

This seems like quite the assumption.

My baseline assumption for a functional relationship would be that the partner that has the least time to help with housework would try to pick up the parts of it that the other partner least enjoys.

I think in that scenario, the real issue is if one of the partners views educational attainment as more important, or worthy of respect, than maintaining the household. There are people who find taking on those responsibilities more fulfilling than work or education. If both people are putting in the same amount of work on different things, its a division of labor. Having equal respect for one another's contributions is the crucial facor.

If only one partner is working full time, how is it not equal (and expected) that the other does the housework?

You are changing premise. Just like the person I am responding to changed premise from "partner does all boring stuff" into "education level".

The original comment and rwsponse were neither about stay at home wife nor about educational differences.

There are no real equals in life; everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Even trying to estimate whether your partner is equal to you is a kind of competitive spirit which isn’t really healthy IMO.

> You're doing a Masters while working full time I imagine. So who picks up the slack for household management? I'm guessing your wife. If you have kids, then it is even more unbalanced

One could just as well find inequality the other way - that the poster is going above and beyond to improve the family's financial situation.

The point being - who cares? If the division of labor works for them, amazing. My wife probably spends more time with the kid than I do, I definitely spend more time fixing shit around the house. I, my wife, the kid, and the house are all better off with this situation than any other combination, nobody is walking out. Maybe the house.

Seems kinda unromantic to say that, just because I'm a millionaire with a PhD, I can't fall in love with 99% of the population.

This. Part of the thing that makes for a good marriage mindset is just being willing/able to find/recognize the humanity in another.

Sounds like they were blindsided because they were too focused on work? And poor communication in the relationship.

It sounds like you think 2 workaholics make a better marriage because they are both "accomplished" and both focused on work, also sounds elitist.

I know women in marriages you have in mind who, after they felt closed to me opened up and turned out they were super unhappy. They stay because of kids and because the have some feelings for husband still. But they don't like that and have a lot of resentment.

But, it does not necessary describes his situation. It sounds like two people with different initial interests.

I've known some husbands in marriages who resent that they're expected to do half the housework and child rearing with a full time job when the spouse has no formal employment. Kids take a huge amount of time, and the pandemic has limited school and daycare choices for many.

Still, kids become gradually more independent. And some housework can be outsourced (landscaping, no yard, surface cleaning). A career in the marketplace is often 40+ years before reaching retirement or financial independence.

I don't know any couple where husband would do half child caring while woman has no job. Like, not a single one. I do know couples with various splits including husband doing more. But this particular scenario, not really.

> Kids take a huge amount of time, and the pandemic has limited school and daycare choices for many.

I know couples that split it and the ones where it falls on woman. I know couples where women are resentful that work sacrifice is disproportionately on them. Women who would prefer job. And woman being intentionally at home and wanting it so.

But like, only husband being employed and he doing half homeschooling is something I did not seen.

We all have different circles. My point was less about the gender and more that some partners (at least those IME) have unrealistic expectations. They may also not consider the quantity of work the other side is putting in over the years.

If neither the wife nor children have any disabilities, none of the children are in a high achieving sport or similar and the children are of schooling age the husbands’ resentment is fully justified.

> "marry your equal"

Sorry but this is incredibly stupid advice. There are no magical formulas or flow charts for who to marry.

That’s true. It depends on what you’re willing to give and take. On your values and vision of life with your partner. I’ve met plenty of guys without a degree who were very intelligent and could talk about the ways of the world and their jobs. And degree holders who couldn’t’ even explain their own subject.

'Equal' in the sense of outlook is fair but you cant judge a person by external metrics.

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