This is super weird because the US _also_ still uses forced prison labor to pick cotton.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
We've detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28644625.
Well, it's clear after the fact, but that was not intentional. You have way more experience monitoring and tracking these threads and therefore predicting what will probably happen than any of the rest of us. I do think it's hypocritical for a government to impose sanctions for doing something (forced prisoner labor) that that government also does with its own prisoners. It would be nice if we could have an honest discussion about our carceral state without people repeatedly leaning into the idea that "convicted of crime"="deserves what they get, but only here and not there". But I understand that there are clearly now many greyed comments under here, so I don't fault you for separating the thread. And I can't predict that it won't happen again, but I'm sorry about bringing what this thread became to your doorstep.
The truth is that giving convicted prisoners opportunities to work is probably a big net positive. I'm sure plenty of them would work for pennies rather than rot in a cell.
The root of the problem is if there is injustice in sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work itself. But that requires far more investigation to establish than pearl-clutching about the universal practice of "forced labor".
But if there is a legit criminal behind bars, I would like to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able to work in a highly controlled, safe workplace.
lol what? they're in a cage guarded by men with guns. what about that could possibly be anything other than "coercive?"
"If you accept to do non-mandatory work in exchange of money/reduced sentence" it will be your choice.
So it's because everyone does it that it's "ok", then?
Or because you think it's better than "rotting in a cell"?
Whatever man. The issue is that the labour is _forced_. Give prisoners a choice to work or not and pay them, at market value, for their work.
If you're against choice and pay for prisoners you really shouldn't be embarrassed to just go ahead and call it what it is: slavery.
The allegation that the Xinjiang prisoners are actually innocent people being ethnically/religiously cleansed and forced into slavery has extremely little basis in reality, relying completely on claims from a tiny, unaccountable clique of Washington DC based ideologues (Zenz, et al) and ETIM lobbyists (WUC, et al).
However, the article deceptively uses the banal truth of the first allegation as a vehicle to imply that truth of the second, far more extreme allegation. These are classic disinformation methods employed to achieve political agendas.
I just don't want private entities profiting off prisoners our taxes house.
Edit: it's disgusting to me that anyone downvoted this. what do you believe, if not that people have a right to the fruits of their labor, even as criminals? believing otherwise is believing in slavery and exploitation.
In my opinion, prison labor should only be used for public works. Cleaning up parks and that sort of thing. Giving a captive labor stream to private enterprise is only good for the owners of the select few firms who can take advantage of it.
So, like you say, it shouldn't take away from the rights of others. Just pay the prisoners just like you'd pay any other worker regardless of the kind of job.
The fact that you used the word "opportunities" to described "forced" really demonstrates the problem with the line of reasoning used to justify forced labor.
Forced labor is wrong. Always. Period.
> I would like to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able to work in a highly controlled, safe workplace.
Sure, if someone is in prison they should be able to work. They should have the choice to work. As soon as the labor is forced, then it is unacceptable, immoral, and anyone defending it is wrong.
pair that with the fact that the united states is #1 in prisoners per capita, and it's not hard to come to a pretty dark conclusion...
In addition, the level of human rights prisoners get in the US is far beyond what any Uighur experiences. Right to a lawyer, right to appeal convictions, visits from family members. It's really a false equivalency.
Even when policing in the US is so completely racially motivated? Driving (hell, biking/walking/breathing) while black is a reality of the US carceral system.
The last year has really shown the world that US policing and incarceration is completely broken and highly resistant to even governance change (who's in charge of whom?)
I'm not saying what China does with the Uyghur population is right. Just that the US is not far away. Hell, look at the border detention centers.
The difference is U.S. prisoners are convicted felons. Many volunteer for these jobs, such as the firefighters in California. Others are paid a small wage for their work or get reduced sentences.
In China, it's members of specific minority groups such as Uyghurs who are singled out and put into concentration camps ... not because of what they have done, but because of who they are and what they believe.
Uyghurs and other non-Han minority people in China are subjected to forced labor, forced abortions and idealogical re-education.
Via the AP:
An estimated 1 million people or more — most of them Uyghurs — have been confined in re-education camps in Xinjiang in recent years, according to researchers. Chinese authorities have been accused of imposing forced labor, systematic forced birth control and torture, and separating children from incarcerated parents.
https://apnews.com/article/only-on-ap-middle-east-europe-gov...
The Guardian:
It estimated 570,000 people came through three minority-heavy prefectures alone – Aksu, Hotan, and Kashgar – and that labor programs in other ethnic minority regions as well as prison labor would probably add hundreds of thousands to the figure.
The labour programs are not secret; they are frequently written about in state media as glowing examples of the government assisting millions of poor people into work, but those articles also contain clues to their coercive nature. Transferred workers are often sent far from their home, made to live on site in factories and subjected to ideological training.
Publications on the labour schemes frequently include references to policies discouraging “illegal religious activities” and changing thoughts and behaviour.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/xinjiang-china...
"The findings of this research contradict Chinese officials' claims that all 'trainees' from so-called vocational training [centers] had 'graduated' by late 2019," report author Nathan Ruser wrote. "Instead, available evidence suggests that many extrajudicial detainees in Xinjiang's vast 're-education' network are now being formally charged and locked up in higher security facilities, including newly built or expanded prisons, or sent to walled factory compounds for coerced [labor] assignments."
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916665128/report-satellite-im...
Is it really so much to ask for a source that doesn't have an obvious and massive Conflict of Interest in destabilizing China?
If only you would apply what you demand of others to your own brazen statements.
Please stay on topic: where are your primary sources that don't have a massive Conflict of Interest? It's okay to admit you don't have any.
Since you seem to be very well educated on this topic, can you share your sources? I'm eager to read them.
Recognizing China as a competitor on an unchecked rise, Washington "pivoted" its foreign policy on China towards antagonism at the beginning of the Obama admin. [1]
This resulted in a number of related attempts to internally destabilize China and loosen the dominance of the Communist Party, ideally leading to a Chinese regime that is submissive to Washington's demands (as occurred recently in India, Ukraine, Brazil and many other historical cases). Otherwise, China could very well surpass the USA as the most powerful nation on Earth.
Among those attempts is a fierce propaganda initiative, which takes any controversial issue related to China and warps it beyond recognition, with the goal of demonizing the Communist Party. Xinjiang, Hong Kong, COVID-19, Taiwan are among the extremely propagandized topics in circulation.
It is virtually impossible to get a fact-based perspective on these issues from mainstream Western media, because that is not their goal. If a mainstream Western outlet attempts to portray China in a neutral/positive, fact-based light, then they risk repercussions. For example, the illuminating PBS documentary entitled "China's War on Poverty" was removed from the airwaves in USA [2] citing "funding" concerns. Any attempt to deviate from official media policy on China could be labeled a "national security risk" and compromise major media corporation's access to funding and other opportunities. Simply not worth the risk (see Parenti's or Chomsky's "propaganda model").
Meanwhile, extremely dubious "reporting" that furthers this foreign policy agenda is amplified to incredible extents. This is how virtually all "China bad" stories end up tracing their origins from a relatively tiny inbred clique of Washington D.C.-based ideologues/think tanks/"human rights" groups, ETIM separatists, Falun Gong cultists, and weapons manufacturers who stand to profit enormously from the "China Threat" theory. Everyone else is directly or indirectly shut out.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of_t...
[2] - https://current.org/2020/05/after-pbs-drops-film-pbs-socal-r...
FTFY.
> Many volunteer for these jobs
True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day.
In any case, using slave labor for profit is morally abhorrent. It creates very negative societal incentives, and it allows keeping the overall labor rate lower. I'd happily fight fires in CA or elsewhere, if the price is right.
Source? A family member was charged with a felony for drugs and went to prison, and he was certainly not locked in his cell 23 hours daily.
And I think this is worth distinguishing: a slave is always prisoner of their enslaver. The reverse need not be the case, and yet our system turns prisoners into slaves through forced labor. There's no volunteerism involved here. It's about those with power, those without. Slavery can be understood best by how the powerful behave, not the powerless. No one would volunteer for this or prisoners wouldn't have to be forced to do it.
I'm always disappointed that the lessons of slavery still aren't understood in this country. It's painful and shameful.
EDIT: clarity of terms
Regardless of what the laws are, I believe that prison labor is a bad practice with big ethical issues—it incentives incarceration as a means to procure cheap/free labor that can be used to turn a profit for those in power.
EDIT: To clarify: I don't think giving prisoners an option to work is a bad thing, but nobody should be allowed to profit off of such labor other than the prisoner themselves. Anything else tends to lead towards undesirable incentives and outcomes.
You don't agree with China's decision to make practicing religion a crime, I don't agree with the US's decision to make possessing drugs a crime. Both are "crimes" punishable by incarceration according to the two governments.
I can't say that's the argument that I'd use to defend slavery, though...