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Comment by NotPractical | Hacker News Reader

For the record, I also own a Mac: the MacBook Pro, 2019 baseline model. I used to enjoy the battery life (though it has been slowly getting worse to the point where I have considered reaching out to Apple about it since the battery is glued in and I can't replace it myself). I like the metal body. I also like macOS. My MacBook is not completely silent because it's an Intel mac, but the M1 would be, that's true. As far as "better screen", I'm not so sure... on paper, the resolution is nearly the same. I also like the trackpad. But anyway, you need to decide whether these things are worth the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless. I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying this instead.

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Word, I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially with big ticket items.

I've used pretty much all the developer laptop contenders as daily drivers at some point. You get used to what you get used to, so marginally better isn't so important, I've found.

I'm going to pick one of the framework laptops because they look decent, but my secondary objective is to support a company that at least is walking some of the walk I want to see.

> I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially with big ticket items.

I love what Framework are doing, but integrated hardware does not immediately equal throwaway culture (saying as something who still uses their late 2013 MacBook Pro).

I think it's fair to say though that even if you don't have a throwaway culture, apple certainly has a throwaway culture and has been cultivating it in their users heavily (often by integrating their devices more than is necessary). Seems you managed to escape their wiles but many haven't.

No I think there are certain aspects about Apple products that are definitely not throwaway culture, mainly software support. The hardware is also holding up really long (I also use a MBP 2013, I have several iPhone 6s users in my family). The main issue is that in case of defects, repairs are not economical and I wish Apple would recognize that. Given the long viability of hard and software, I have reasonable doubt to believe it’s a decision made to maximize profit, but rather a legacy Jony Ive sized blind spot.

Apple makes hardware that is extremely durable, I and others use MacBooks that are getting close to 10 years old. I really doubt people will use the Framework for longer.

The main reason people buy new phones and macbooks is not that the old ones stop working, it's that the new ones are desirable, they are even slicker than the one you've got.

AirPods die within a few years and then get tossed in the trash. Modern MacBooks aren't built like they used to be. I don't see any reason you couldn't use the Framework Laptop for that long. Just replace anything that wears down over time.

My 2016 MPB is in perfect shape, except the keyboard that was overly sensitive to dirt from the outset. Not sure if that counts as modern? My new MBA seems extremely well built too, not sure what you are referring to.

Using my airpods pro at least 5 hours a day since they were released, also perfect shape. Like the AirPods 2 i handed down. I'm sure they won't last forever, but they've already provided a hell of a lot of usage for 200 bucks.

How is the battery life on your 2016 MBP? Like I said in one of my other posts, my 2019's battery is already slowly degrading. I'm at ~300 charge cycles after ~2 years of moderate usage. Apple says the battery is "consumed" after 1000 cycles[1], so it seems my battery is already 30% consumed, which doesn't make me very hopeful for the longevity of this device.

I wish it was easier to find actual data on battery life of 2016+ MBP models. Googling for "how long does MacBook Pro battery last" yields mostly useless results. There's a macOS app called "Coconut Battery" that tracks battery health over time, with an optional reporting feature that uploads the data to a server for comparison purposes.[2] Unfortunately the online viewer only allows you to view data by each individual model. It might be more helpful to aggregate the data from all 2016+ models, since the battery is the same, afaik. The online viewer also doesn't show how many reports the averages are based on. I wonder if it would be possible to scrape their data, to produce an evidence-based answer to the question "how long will my MacBook probably last?", rather than relying mostly on anecdotal evidence from Mac users.

Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last.

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201585

[2] https://www.coconut-flavour.com/ccbonline

The battery life was never stellar, compared to previous and of course current Airs, but my daughter can use it a full school day without plugging in.

>Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last.

This is where my view differs, since I can just hand it in for replacement, I don't have any issues with that. To me it doesn't matter at all if I can do it myself or not. Well except if you have to leave it at the Apple store for several days, then that's very inconvenient.

In general I just see it as a practical and financial question, and since I use my laptop 10 hours a day, and earn a very good salary from it, 200 dollars more or less every three years is really insignificant.

The battery is replaceable on MacBooks. It may not be easy, but Apple offers a replacement service on all their laptops

https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/

> Apple offers a battery replacement service for all MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebooks with built-in batteries.

I believe you probably mean “user replaceable” in your comments above. I do see the value in that for myself, which is why I still have my 2012 MacBook Pro. Nevertheless, I continue to my iPhone 6s after 3 battery replacements (I paid Apple for two and one was covered by them due to a recall).

I point this out because I think your criticism of Apple designing disposable hardware is less true of them than their competitors, at least in my experience. My Apple laptop and phone are the first Apple ones I’ve bought, and have outlasted my PC laptops and Androids by at least 2x.

If you want to make a criticism about Apple designing hardware that’s costly to repair, that’s something I could agree with.

Exactly. If you pay more to buy an Apple product you probably won't mind paying more to change the battery.

The high price is not an issue for professionals, but it does mean people are _more_ likely to repair them, not less.

The batteries on 2016+ MacBook Pro are not Apple-replaceable, either. They replace the entire top case because they can't replace just the battery.[1] (If anyone has any source for the contrary, please provide it.) Assuming it's not user-replaceable nor Apple-replaceable, can we agree that it cannot be called a "replaceable" battery? Yes, technically it may be possible, but if even the company who made it thinks it's too difficult, it's not very useful or accurate to call it "replaceable". To be honest, I disagree that it should be called "replaceable" even if only the company who made it can replace it. It's a linguistic debate at this point.

By the way, the 2018+ MacBook Air does have a replaceable battery, in that Apple can replace it, so by extension, users can too (if they can track down a replacement).[2] Apple must adopt the adhesive pull tab approach on the MacBook Pro. The glued-in battery is completely unacceptable.

> I think your criticism of Apple designing disposable hardware is less true of them than their competitors, at least in my experience.

Keep in mind that, as the most profitable tech company in the world, Apple deserves to be held to a very high standard. Time and time again other companies follow their lead. Also keep in mind that Apple uses this profit to actively lobby against right to repair, making things worse for everyone in the long run.

Though laptops mostly don't care about repairability and any repairability they have is usually an accident, I don't think most other laptops on the market are quite as egregiously anti-repair as the MacBook Pro.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28637849

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28639234

If you want to replace only the battery, there’s an ifixit for it with 40+ steps that requires glued attachments with a heat source:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Touch+Bar+2...

As a user, my main concern with a battery replacement is that I get a new battery, that the device continues to work, and that it doesn’t take too long. If Apple decides the best way to meet those objectives is to swap the top case, I’d still consider the battery replaced.

> Assuming it's not user-replaceable nor Apple-replaceable, can we agree that it cannot be called a "replaceable" battery?

I could agree to calling these batteries “non-user replaceable”. What you’ve described is that Apple can do it, but they replace more components at the same time.

For what it’s worth, I like MacBooks but I skipped that generation of MacBook Pros because it didn’t seem worth it to me. I bought a non retina MacBook because I didn’t like the soldered on comments. After having 3 iPhone 6s battery replacements done by Apple, I guess I’m somewhat okay with glued in components as long as _someone_ can service it.

> If Apple decides the best way to meet those objectives is to swap the top case, I’d still consider the battery replaced.

The only reason Apple "decides" this is because they designed the laptop with a non-replaceable battery. It would cost less money and be much less wasteful for them to replace just the battery, but they can't, because it's too difficult, because they designed it that way. This isn't the "best" way, it's most likely the only way for them to do it at their scale. They replace just the battery in the MacBook Air because they designed it with a replaceable battery.

The top case is replaceable -- Apple can replace it, and so can the user, if they can source a replacement. But the battery, individually? It's not replaceable. That iFixit guide you sent is not news to me. This is what I was referring to when I said:

> Yes, technically it may be possible, but if even the company who made it thinks it's too difficult, it's not very useful or accurate to call it "replaceable".

Most people (including myself) would never consider performing this procedure on their device. Apple won't do it. You would be hard-pressed to find a repair shop that would. It's far too risky and time-consuming.

Your definition of "replaceable" seems to be "theoretically possible to replace, even if extraordinarily difficult (by design)". Under this definition, basically any part in any product is "replaceable", so it is not a useful definition. Apple could probably not have made it any more difficult than it already is to replace the battery, and they don't even do this themselves, so it's perfectly fair to call it non-replaceable. Definitions are subjective; we must collectively decide how to use the word "replaceable" in this context, and I see no reason to adopt the almost meaningless, Apple-friendly definition. For example, depending on the definition, you might even be able to say the MacBook Pro battery is "user-replaceable". Does "user-replaceable" mean "designed to be replaced by the user", or "easily replaceable by the user", or "theoretically possible to replace by the user"? If the latter, then the MacBook Pro battery is user-replaceable, I guess.

I think a better definition of "replaceable" would be "feasible to replace, at least by the company who made it", and an even better definition would be "feasible to replace by the user". Either way, your definition is not useful.

> After having 3 iPhone 6s battery replacements done by Apple, I guess I’m somewhat okay with glued in components as long as _someone_ can service it.

The iPhone 6S battery uses adhesive pull tabs like the MacBook Air, so it is (easily) replaceable (by Apple, or by users, or by independent repair shops). The screen is lightly glued on, but that's standard procedure for phones these days, and the removal process isn't too difficult, risky, or time-consuming with the right tools [1].

In fact, it has been relatively easy to replace the battery in every iPhone released since at least the iPhone 4, and every iPhone since then has scored at least a 6/10 on iFixit [2]. So, afaik, the non-removable battery is currently only a problem with these Apple products: MacBook Pro (1/10 iFixit), AirPods (0/10), AirPods Pro (0/10).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kskal4s1sU, https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+6s+Battery+Replacement/5...

[2] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone

Yeah, that's the where the culture part comes in.

Apple adds features in attempt to lure people to 'upgrade' from a nearly identical product. Touchbar, face-id, 'apple silicon'. Most of this stuff doesn't change the value proposition of the core product. I'd say that the majority of Apple's user base is largely there for status reasons, and those people upgrade to keep the status they feel the brand grants them. As someone who isn't an Apple fan, but who uses some of their products, I am very aware there are exceptions, but I'd suspect that, like me, these exceptions also don't follow the press release driven upgrade cycle.

It's this type of consumerism that I'm personally not interested in. I want a tool, I want it be under my control. I want to be able to maintain it for its natural useful lifetime. That thinking does not belong in the culture Apple is fostering.

(Edit: and yeah, I get that Apple isn't the only culprit here, it's just that if a company seems to be fostering a culture that fits my ideals, I'm willing to compromise on 'slickness')

Apple Silicon was a very significant upgrade, my M1 Air is just insane. It's a ridiculously good computer.

But if you want a tool, why do you want it to be "under your control"? I think most people are more like me, I just want a really nice computer that works well, I have exactly zero desire to replace the RAM or upgrade the SSD.

For phones the

I own an M1 Air. It is a macbook, and seems fine so far, but it's over-hyped.

I'll agree that it seems that currently most people are like you. They don't think about maintainability when it comes to belongings. If they care about the effects their actions have on the environment, they might want to start.

If you are buying a new phone and laptop every two years, where are you putting the old one? What happens to the toxic materials in the batteries? Did you need to have a new machined aluminum shell, or could you have just replaced the part that was bad inside it?

That all said, I don't have any illusions about changing the course of the average person's thoughts or habits via an HN post.

Like I said in the original post, I'm done with buying throwaway goods if I have an alternative. I'm happy that an option like the framework exists.

I definitely don't buy a new laptop every two years, few people do, and when I do buy one, like most people, I sell or hand it down. Same with a phone, I don't think many people throw away 2 year old phones.

Using a laptop intensively for 5-6 years cannot be called "throwaway culture".

When it's finally unusable, Apple will recycle it for free, at least if you buy a new one at the same time. I don't know what they do with the battery, but I can't see why it would help if it was easily user replaceable.

Maybe you feel that the M1 is overhyped because you only had your previous laptop for a year or two? Coming from a 2016 MBP the difference was huge. And of course that laptop is still in use 5-6 hours a day.

Most importantly, assuming Framework is still around in 10 years, do you think you'll use it for significantly longer than 8 years, which I suppose will be the lifetime of my old MBP?

(Not who you responded to)

I have three old macbooks laying around that people just gave me because they didn't know what to do with them - all broken in some way. I wonder how many people actually recycle their laptops, and am worried about the answer.

iPhones have incredible longevity and Apple is still supporting the 5s (2013, gets security patches) and 6s (2014, receiving iOS 15).

I also have a 2008 MacBook and it's a treat considering its age.

In years past you had to bring up the MBP but now the Macbook Air tips the scales.

I got my 16 GB Macbook Air for $1000 at Microcenter. For development purposes it's the same as a Pro, except it doesn't have a fan (and has never throttled) and doesn't have a touch bar (which is great)

The MBA is an insane value with the advent of the M1, a complete turnaround from the old days.

Also it has a trick up it's sleeve when it comes to this:

> the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless.

First off, Apple will replace the battery in a MBA for $129 (vs $200 for the MBP), so a little alarmist...

But more importantly the new Air uses stretch-release adhesive (think command strips) and doesn't require removing the logic board for battery replacements. The MBP didn't inherent this improvement.

It's no Framework but it makes it the value proposition that much sweeter...

The M1 Macbooks also allegedly have issues for which people need to file class action lawsuits:

Class-action lawsuit filed for M1 MacBook screen cracks [U] https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/16/class-action-lawsuit-screen-c...

Of course a laptop sold in 10s of millions will have more problem than a laptop sold 1000x less...

The battery is indeed doable, but the keyboard and screen on the macbook air are more of a challenge, although the parts shouldn’t be hard to find in a few years. With the Framework laptop those parts are easy to replace but bespoke, so framework’s repairability will be determined by parts availability in half a decade.

This is a good point. "Repairability" is a lot less important to me than lifetime. Right now, I have a MacBook with AppleCare. The author's criticism with AppleCare is that it can take a week for Apple to repair the computer. That's reasonable for me.

So the real test of the Framework computer is not in the first week. (Although the initial impression is very impressive!) The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac. Modular hardware is limited by the availability of the parts, and Framework doesn't have the brand to convince me that they'll be around for longer than I can get my computer serviced by Apple.

Does anyone know if Apple is even capable of replacing the battery, or if they replace the entire top case assembly, on 2016+ MacBook Pro models? Apparently the Air's battery is indeed replaceable (...by Apple) but I'm not sure the Pro's is, which is incredibly wasteful, if true.

> The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac

No, the real test is whether you, 3 years after buying the computer, can replace the battery more easily than you could replace it on the Mac. Applecare just covers the cost of a new laptop when your Mac breaks during warranty. "Repair" is a generous way of putting that.

Another thing to consider is that, if everyone is reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not sure about long-term support, it will never receive said support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the greater good! I don't even perceive the risk to be that high, to be honest.

> if everyone is reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not sure about long-term support, it will never receive said support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the greater good!

I dunno, this whole idea of 'trickle down innovation' that ends up coming at the expense of the working class is a very bad deal when you consider the amount of advanced technologies available today yet which have been enclosed/commoditized as 'intellectual property'.

Another example is Musk's scammy 'secret master plan' hustle that tells a feel good (yet misleading) story to the propertied class that they should 'buy a $170,000 Tesla to help make mass produced Tesla's possible for poor people'. Which is a rich story when you see that big oil companies, together with governments, suppressed viable electric car technologies for years ('Who Killed The Electric Car?' documentary). My point is that these are deep systemic issues that should be remedied at their root, instead of them being presented as something the non-propertied -class should plan and pay for, especially when you consider that we have actually already paid for it (remember we gave them those big juicy low-interest government loans).

At this point in time, buying a modular laptop like a Framework computer should have no risks involved with it.

We need to just grow many more open source standards. All that proprietary hardware and software does is remove valuable feedback loops and lessons from the commons. It criminalizes cooperation, interoperability, repairing and repurposing. Only the propertied class wins here.

All the above arguments only compound and multiply when you consider that most of the technology that exists today was developed with taxpayer backed government loans (Mazzucato: The Entrepreneurial State), meaning that, as she puts it, "we have ended up creating an ‘innovation system’ whereby the public sector socializes risks, while rewards are privatized".

Do you mean the criticism is reasonable or 1 week repair time? Because the latter is absolutely not for anyone that uses their laptop as their primary working device. A week downtime is completely unacceptable.

I'm a bit conflicted about this, because on the one hand: yeah being unable to work for a week is obviously bad, but, devices are going to fail and it could sometimes be the difference between _you_ wasting a week debugging or not.

I like the idea of being able to fix my gear if I'm away on vacation or there's no apple store around. In fact, I'm overall a big fan of repairability because I'm a bit of a tinkerer.

But if it's a work machine? Then I'd rather have a replacement on standby- and Apples time capsule/time machine stuff works better than other backup/restore systems I've used.. replacing a machine is a 2hr process if you have something usable in stock.

Eitherway: I work in Europe, so these machines literally cost more than a monthly salary, it's cheaper for the company to have me sit on my hands for a week than to have a spare laptop for me.

Resources can be shared so even for a company with 10 employees it quickly becomes viable to have one spare laptop/Mac mini/whatever at hand just in case.

>I'm a bit conflicted about this, because on the one hand: yeah being unable to work for a week is obviously bad, but, devices are going to fail and it could sometimes be the difference between _you_ wasting a week debugging or not.

These devices are sold as "Pro" presumably meaning Professional. Not being able to work for a week is not professional. There are companies that give you a repair time in hours, not days.

>it's cheaper for the company to have me sit on my hands for a week than to have a spare laptop for me.

I'm self-employed so a week downtime cost me a week's salary. But even so, I wouldn't want to sit on my hands for a week, because I consider that unprofessional.

There are a lot of likely failures on a laptop/computer which shouldn't require any more than an hour of downtime, because they should be trivial to fix, but can take your Apple device out of business for weeks even. As much as love my Apple devices, this alone might drive me to the Framework laptop.

Things which should be fixable by the user/IT personal on site:

- the battery

- the fan

- the keyboard

- storage

Luckily I have discovered an independent certified service provider for Apple devices, which is as flexible as the Apple rules allows for repairs, but just my experiences of getting the fan of my Mac Mini fixed by Apple were horrible.

If you were to buy a proper business computer like a ThinkPad or a Dell Vostro/XPS, you would have a next business day or sometimes even 4 hour on-site warranty where a technician would come to wherever you are in the world and fix the part for you right there.

1 week is an unacceptable wait for a business computer.

Agreed. I had a tech come to my hotel room in Hong Kong and fix my Alien (Dell) computer. He replaced the screen and keyboard under warranty in 2016. I had a Dell that I dropped off for same-day service. I have a Thinkpad T430u I bought back in 2012, and it is running great. Very solid. I run Kali Linux on it, and I do a lot of coding or writing on it. I love the keyboard, and I am one of those fans of the thumbnub! I have owned all sorts of computers from 1978, and this is by far my most rock solid one. The original battery is still in it, and it is not holding the charge it did, but hey, 9 years is a long life for a battery in these things. I am now using a MSI Stealth G65, and it is great, but let's see how it holds up. I've dropped it twice in two years, but it seems fine. I use it for my 3D work, CAD, and UE4 fun. I may buy The Framework to see how it goes, although like some others, I worry the parts will not be available two years down the road, and if they are, at a normal price. It's a chick-or-the-egg scenario: people need to buy them to create a market for this to happen.

If you can't wait a week, go buy a new one and restore to it. When your repair comes back return it. Apple's return policy is 2 weeks and is actually 45 days when you ask nicely.

> The author's criticism with AppleCare is that it can take a week for Apple to repair the computer. That's reasonable for me.

One of my biggest reasons for using Apple laptops was the now-defunct Joint Venture program. I enrolled all our company laptops under that program expressly for the loaner laptop during repairs and priority support. The ability for employees to walk into the nearest Apple Store to the current client account and walk out with a loaner the same day to restore from backups and return to the client the following day was a no-brainer business expense.

Now that program has no functional replacement for that benefit, switching to Framework looks extremely attractive, especially as more of our work finds ourselves in containers.

I'm currently working in China. My 2015 xps has been getting slow.

So I took it to a nearby dell garage for them to replace the 9550 motherboard with 9570 for roughly 300$ while keeping all of the other components unchanged.

I've honestly been shocked at the level of service.

Sadly, the 9500 has moved to a different chassis so further upgrades are impossible..

Even if Framework goes out of business, most crucial parts that are likely to fail are standard (hard drive, memory, battery), so you'd still be able to replace them yourself. And even for the ones that aren't (like the modular ports), the schematics are available [1], so anyone would be able to make new ones.

[1]: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards

Repairability has an extreme impact on lifetime, so if you're concerned about the latter, you should care about the former just as much.

Agree with everything said here, as a MBP user (2010->2015->16->19) for the last however many years (PC before then and as a secondary now)

The closed ecosystem and continued hardening of even access to inside of my machine is troubling and obviously anti-consumer. Those points coupled with the lack of even 32GB of RAM in an M1 model (not to mention the cost of the brand) makes my next computer a probably-not-apple machine.

I also have the 2019 MBP, although not base model because I'm not a monster. Didn't the base model that year still have like a 128g SSD or something comically small? (I'm only jokingly being judgemental here, although it does baffle me why someone wouldn't upgrade at least a tiny bit to a level of practically if you had the choice to buy the computer in the first place) I'm kind of satisfied but not pleased at all with it, and I only have it because my 2018 non-touchbar model had a hardware issue which they replaced it with, and the 2013 model before that was stolen. It's marginally uograded to a 256gb SSD and 16gb of ram. I'm not pleased, specifically because of how loud the damn thing is. I was able to score a deal on an old gaming PC that runs quieter (or at least less annoying) on more demanding tasks, meanwhile I can't browse Instagram or watch video without creating a ridiculous noise. The 2013 model did not have this problem, and yes I'll acknowledge that video is a demanding task and modern websites are garbage, but cmon.

I did at least upgrade to 256 GB storage (...for like $200 or something ridiculous), haha. I just didn't think to mention that minor upgrade.

Edit: I'll also mention that the fan noise hasn't been a problem for me (I rarely notice it), but that may be because I don't use too many demanding programs.

Ah I see. A friend of mine who definitely has the money and makes it as a developer bought the real base model with baseline storage, and it's a bit funny how little he can do with it. With 256 it gets me by most of the time, but I'm out of luck if I need VMs or games really. I can pick one. Didn't have the budget at the time to upgrade past that though, for the absurd prices you stated.

Sometimes the fans will spin up in the middle of the night for some kernel process presumably.

> As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless.

You can replace the battery yourself for like 50 bucks, or have Apple do it for 2-3x that. We have MacBooks from 2013 in perfect working order at home.

You technically can, in 66 easy steps and about 1-3 hours [1], all the while risking damaging your laptop. Compare that with 3-6 minutes [2] for the actually replaceable battery on the Framework.

[1]: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2...

[2]: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85

I did it on two old MBAs in under an hour, never tried with the touch bar mac.

My 2016 touchbar MBP13 still has an excellent battery though.

Also, amortised over 3-4 years of use I don't really see why it matters if it takes 1 or 3 hours. I'll take a 2 mm thinner computer any day.

Replacing batteries for MBAs and MBPs are completely different experiences.

I did the same with an MBA, replacing its battery in less than an hour by virtue of the battery not being glued to the case, nor having to worry about hidden clips built into the case, nor having to carefully dig out the guts of the system and putting them back together.

The MBP is in a totally different class -- as iFixit shows, you don't start removing the battery until step 51! And they're not kidding: to get to the battery, you have to do things like remove the trackpad assembly and pry out the logic board assembly.

Sure, you can amortize the 1-3 hours of labor over years of device ownership, but at every step, you're dealing with delicate parts, putting you in danger of turning your expensive, trusty daily driver into a brick.

Batteries are a wear item, guaranteed to have to be replaced. Apple's managers, designers, and engineers could show more empathy for their customers by making it easier and less risky to replace their wear items.

I think the vast majority of people are like me, I'd much rather pay Apple 100-200 bucks to replace it, so that is what they optimise for.

I'd rather have a slim computer than one where I can easily change the battery, so they are indeed empathic to the majority of customers.

The group of people that actually want to open their computer and tinker with it is extremely small, it just happens to be loud and living on HN.

The thing is, I don't even know if you're paying Apple 100-200 bucks to replace the battery, or if you're paying them that much to replace the entire top case assembly, along with the battery, since it's so damn difficult to replace just the battery, I don't know if they even try. This is at least what they used to do.[1] I tried to research and find if this is still their practice but it was proving difficult. Very wasteful if so, and all likely just to make it difficult for the user to repair their own machine. (For what it's worth, recent MacBook Airs reportedly have Apple-replaceable batteries.)

[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/07/2018-macbook-air-batter...

Whatever else, I can guarantee you that they are not doing it on purpose in order to make it harder to repair them. They have just been prioritizing thinness.

> or if you're paying them that much to replace the entire top case assembly

The link says that "previous" MBAs had replacable batteries, and I know that 2012-2014 had it, so I don't think it was ever the case.

> For comparison, the previous-generation MacBook Air has a screwed-down battery that can be removed and replaced by Apple and its service providers without a top case replacement, in line with other non-Retina notebooks.

Why can you guarantee that?

Also, this article was written in November 2018, and here's what it says:

> the battery can be individually replaced in the new MacBook Air [...] In all other MacBook and MacBook Pro models with a Retina display released since 2012, when a customer has required a battery replacement, Apple has replaced the entire top case enclosure, including the keyboard and trackpad.

This implies that, at least from 2016-2019, they were replacing the entire top case assembly in MBP. I have no reason to doubt they still are. The article is mainly about the MBA so it is a little confusing, to be fair.

Consider also that anything that Apple does to make their product less repairable by the end-user also makes it less repairable by independent repair shops. I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time and money taking their Framework Laptop to a repair shop just to have them replace the battery when they could do it themselves in a few minutes (and you don't need to "live on HN" to follow basic instructions), but it's still an option. Whereas this is usually not an option with MacBooks.

I don't know if this was directed at me, but I'm not saying it isn't easier and cheaper to replace a Framework battery. My point is that almost nobody cares. You replace your battery at most once, after like 4 years. 100 dollars every 4 years is insignificant for almost all laptop owners.

I agree that they don't care. Perhaps they should, though? It's just unnecessarily wasteful (assuming they replace the entire top case assembly, which they probably still do) and expensive. By the way, it is currently $200 [1], but it could change. I don't think it's too unrealistic to imagine that Apple does this intentionally in order to get you to buy the latest model. Why keep investing in an old, dying laptop rather than just get a new one? It makes sense to invest in the Framework Laptop because everything is replaceable, including the mobo/CPU. But it doesn't make sense to invest in an old MacBook that might have other unforeseen, unfixable issues (unless by Apple for a fortune) in the future, even after a battery replacement.

If MacBook users could either replace the battery themselves (or take it to any repair shop if they somehow don't have a few minutes to spare), they wouldn't have to face the "repair or upgrade" dilemma until much later in the laptop's life. For Framework users, it isn't a problem at all.

[1] https://support.apple.com/mac/repair/service

One final thing I'd like to add is that you can have a slim computer with a replaceable battery. You probably typed this comment from one [1]. I don't see why they couldn't adopt this adhesive strip approach for the MBP. Perhaps it would create a teeny less room for the battery, shaving off 30 seconds of battery life on a laptop that already has significantly better life (when new) than most? I don't think this """trade-off""" (if it even exists) is worth it. There are also plenty of non-Apple examples of laptops with replaceable batteries and a MacBook-level slim design. The XPS 13 apparently beats it: 15.35 mm vs 15.6 mm. The Framework Laptop is not far off at 15.85mm.

Of course, having the ability to replace everything else is great, but the battery should be a given. None of the other components are "consumable", though they might still fail eventually, or you might want to upgrade them.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMVDIMmbeoA, https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+B...

I'd add that this quote is just innacurate. A batteryless MBP can be plugged in indefinitely.

> I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying this instead

Apple's trade-in program is pretty good. My 2012 MacBook Pro was still tradeable in 2019 for something like 400 bucks. I would consider that also if you don't want to abandon the Apple ecosystem.

Before having to use a Mac for work I preferred a P53 and an X1 as work laptops, but honestly now that I'm forced to use macOS again I don't miss Linux at all. Would be great to be able to choose though, but I'm kinda locked on Xcode because it's our build system.

Do they go arbitrarily far back, or cut off at some point? (I have a 2013 Air I've barely used for years... Should've thought of it sooner.) The site just lists model names for the Macs, which is oddly non-granular compared to the iPhones by number: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/trade-in

There's an estimator below where it says "Select your device for an estimate", and it walks you through a serial number thing and then gives you an accurate estimate. I think it does cut off at a point but I'm not sure when, and it's not the same for all devices.

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