The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used
pluralistic.net
pluralistic.net
The only real Linux related quirk I've run into so far is that you have to disable panel self refresh (it's on by default and causes stuttering). Other than that tiny thing I pretty much just installed my stuff and started using it.
One little anecdote: I got a card in the mail from Framework saying that there was a problem with the cable for the touchpad, and it had instructions on how to fix it. Contrast that to my experience with Apple where they would delete forum threads for laptop problems and spend years denying issues until legal action forced them to acknowledge it.
Anyway, I'm a fan. I'm really looking forward to when the marketplace opens up with some new parts. I really want my blank keyboard. I'm hoping 2021 will be the year I can own a laptop without a god damn windows logo emblazoned on the keys.
If there's enough of a market for that that they can survive that's cool, but I think there's a reason it's not the default design (that isn't some cynical one about planned obsolescence).
They are replaceable when the external ports (USB-C or otherwise) wear out without the need for soldering or internal board replacement.
The design of the modules is open source, meaning that anyone can design a module that fits their needs.
With USB-C, the connector was designed consideration of a bunch of factors, one of which I would assume is lifespan of the end connectors - USB-c has thicker, more resilient plastic hooks built into the inside of the male plug and stronger mating latches in the female end of the connector.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-USB-cables-particularly-USB-C-s...
If your laptop has a cheap connector which isn't rated for more, and you do two cycles a day (start/end of day, start/end lunch), then you'll go through the rated number of cycles in less than two years.
Doesn't mean the connector will fail right away but it might start to act up. Connectors are not forever.
So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles").
I couldn't lose them / forget them. They wouldn't take up space in my bag while I'm traveling. I could "set and forget" them to perfectly match whatever desktop / docking setup I'm using. In five years when my wireless VR system uses some as-yet-unknown hardware interface, I can swap a single component out to support it. Seems like brilliant design to me.
And for the very few things that don't have a detachable cable, I use a micro USB-C adapter.
It's been several years since the release of the USB-C only MacBook Pros, this shouldn't be an issue if you put in a minimal amount of effort.
Some of my clients still have projectors with... vga ports.
Then you need ethernet and hdmi of course, regularly in the corporate world or at your friends house.
So yeah, dongle it is. USB-C dongle for sure, but still dongle.
Ethernet, OK, I will give you that.
Not to mention the dongle supports several ports.
But you know what is better than either ?
The framework laptop solution of letting me configure the port I want before going to my client.
I personally really like the idea of what Framework is doing and wish more laptops followed suit, but that is a trivially solved problem you identified:
https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Connector-Extender-Chromecast-...
But again, the "dongle" argument is moot and not really a reason to either consider or avoid the Framework, for me at least. It's more about the device being open and repairable, and arguments about dongles are just attempts to justify one's current USB-C only device.
Agree completely. For me, Apple's USB-C only ports isn't an issue as everything I use plugs in via one or two TB3 cables (depending on personal vs work laptop) and daisy chains from the monitor or a TB3 dock so no dongles needed at all, but I still appreciate the design choice Framework made and think it's a good strategy.
I don't understand how one USB-C to VGA cable is more inconvenient?
YOU CAN USE YOUR USBC TO VGA CABLE IF YOU WANT.
Or, if you don't want, you can grab A VGA module out of your drawer you store all your retired dongles in, slide it into your laptop, and there you have it.
What I'm trying to say with this story is that for example monitor cable connectors are designed to fit tightly (vga and dmi even having screws) to give a constant signal, which you don't get from USB-C unless you stand still.
It just makes no sense spending lots of time trying to adapt to obsolete infrastructure for every person you visit. If necessary I even have a blackboard and color chalks in my car and get away with them.
When I go to the meeting room, if I don't need to use my projector, great, but I will never use VGA, too much hassle.
- some conf room don't have a projector, but flat screens, a smart white boards or some remote conf setup that needs you to plug in, and/or no walls that fits the bill for projection
- some conf rooms don't have a place to put for your projector and get a good picture. Their is own the ceiling.
- unless you buy a very good one, some conf rooms won't have the light for your projector to be readable
- it addresses only the projector problem, not ethernet, sd card, usb A, etc
- a good projector is way more expensive that a few dongles, are easier to break, harder to replace if lost/broken or if you forget it at home
Not to say it's a bad idea to _also_ have a projector.
Framework does not even offer a VGA module, do they?
I'd be fine with a pop out style port for those ports. Won't be flush while in use, but I'd happily accept that to trade off having to carry around dongles. I'd rather pack and carry a small "stick" of these modules stacked together than a bundle of dongles.
I give it three months tops before someone starts selling a Pez-like "dispenser" that stores these modules. If the module bodies were designed to stick together though, that would spark joy in my inner Marie Kondo.
1: https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connect...
Some of my clients still have vt220 terminals with... serial ports.
Then you need a 9600 baud modem and rj11 wire of course, regularly in the corporate world or at your friends house.
So yeah, dongle it is. USB 1.1 dongle for sure, but still dongle.
Do any (non-specialist) laptops still have VGA ports? I had a quick look on the Dell site and couldn't find any.
Those are seems to available on other markets. https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Work/ExpertBook/ExpertBook-... https://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/noteboo...
Even 10-15 years ago, proper serial ports were becoming extremely rare, but there are times when you need a proper one.
Around that time we resorted to pc card/express card serial ports for occasions when USB to serial isn't good enough, although they were relatively expensive (3-4 times more than a USB serial dongle).
(The use case in that scenario was field engineers connecting to a very wide variety of odd equipment, like fire alarm panels and door entry systems, that sort of thing - USB dongles were massively inconsistent and unreliable - different dongles would be compatible/incompatible with different kit, was a right mess).
Obviously, these days, express card slots are also quite rare.
(The alternative is hauling out my old IBM T22, which I think maybe came with Win98... mostly still works apart from the battery).
If you're going into an RJ45 serial connection (like I am at the moment), then an ideal laptop would have multiple RJ45s which could be used as either 10G or serial with a standard cat5 cable (not a specially wired one).
The Admin Book A4
[1] https://habr.com/en/post/437912/
:-)
Framework means in theory I could have a laptop (Well in theory) with say 4 ethernet / serial ports (switchable) and SDI, and that's far more useful to me than USB-C.
And of course that setup still requires Ethernet. Can't setup a wifi ap over wifi.
I'm normally happy if the power cable for the screen is still there...
I got it at Target. Love how easy it makes going between my USBC only MBP and other random computers.
Rather than try to sort out the cable confusion, they simply shipped me brand new monitors (which I wasn’t asking for). I also needed dongles to attach my keyboard and mouse, dongles for same were provided by IT.
My point: Dongles are still an issue, not everyone throws out their displays/keyboard/mouse every time apple comes out with some new version. My 2010 dell displays still work just fine, and it would be great if I could plug them straight into my laptop.
People would actually comment about dongle gate in Meetups and I'd show them my usb-c to micro-usb cable... ...oh the look of shock in their eyes... "You mean... you never bought a dongle?". The concept of a cable with usb-c at one end and anything else at the other was completely foreign.
One USB-C connection powers my laptop, connects to my monitor, as well as my wireless mouse and keyboard.
The average person can walk in to the apple store and walk out with a MacBook and usb c hub just fine.
So no pulling anything apart. Think of it almost as each one as a game boy cartridge.
https://www.amazon.com/Purgo-Adapter-MacBook-Thunderbolt-Rea...
You act like these situations are unimaginable when they are literally every day occurrences for some people.
I have adapters that convert the usb-c to micro and lightning, to also charge my airpods, flashlight, etc. Each adapter is about 3/4" (2cm), female USB-C end, and male end of lightning/micro. I've glued them together so that it's just one little thing to take.
I hated carrying around 3+ cables, so this has been a welcome change.
It's true that I can only charge one thing at a time, but that's not an issue for me except in rare circumstances.
As it stands I typically have four cables in my briefcase but at least they are still smaller than a mouse collectively.
That 30$ dongle become either a dangling bit you'll have on your laptop all day, it will be hiting stuff, get under the laptop, or worse case scenario stuck between the screen and the keyboard when you don't pay attention. As it'd always dangling it also become loose over time and get flacky accordingly.
Back then having a HDMI port was standard, no dongle being the norm. So yeah, having the choice between needing a permanent dongle or not, the answer is obvious.
What changed for me is WFH, otherwise I thing I'd still wish for no dongle until USB-C projectors and displays rule the world.
When the first full USB-C Macs went out they definitely were the odd ones out in the company, and even now there’s still that split between run of the mill windows laptops and macs. Adaptors are more common, but it’s still not great.
This should not matter as long as they also have a fully functional USB-C (which I'd guess they do).
It reminds me of asking to include decaffeinated pods in our recurring coffee orders for the espresso machine. The person had no opinion on coffee, but wasn't convinced they needed to accommodate for the minority that was concerned.
It's also easier to just ask to quickly use the worker's computer to get a presentation going.
"Oh yeah sorry, my presentation is made in PowerShell instead of PowerPoint".
USB-C x 4 (new standard blabla)
USB-A x 2
SD x 1
HDMI x 1
Phone/Mic
I applaud the modular approach but Apple’s donglevision was the pure distillation of user-hostility between the Bean-Counter in Chief and the SVP, Thin Stuff.
And all the industrial sheep who followed them. May we all recover…
Any port on any Macbook with USB-C can be used as the charging port, which is a big deal all on its own compared to most non-Macbook laptops that use USB-C charging.
https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+por...
That's the annoying bit with USB-C. We may have (almost) standardized on a single plug/socket shape, but we didn't escape the essential complexity - the fact that one type of connection cannot handle all the use cases we'd like it to. We just pushed that complexity into cables. Instead of having to deal with separate data, network and graphics ports, users now have to deal with potentially separate data, network, graphics and charging cables. I'm not convinced this is an improvement, because USB-C cables are a bottom-feeder market that will not hesitate to outright scam the buyer.
At this point I'm not sure it's an improvement. I feel like the optimum point would be a small amount of standards targeting mutually incompatible applications. That, or forcing some specification requirements on USB-C, and standardize some capability labels.
Edit: Oh and presumably the ports on the Framework are USB4, they just can't say that yet because the certification is still in the works.
I've seen some peripherals and such with it, no laptops yet though. The spec was released in 2019, so considering hardware cycle time we should start to see more devices soon. It's pretty cool that Framework will likely be on the leading edge of that wave.
The site says each port has 4 lanes of pcie 3.0
Hell yeah, USB over PCIe over USB over PCIe here we goooooo!
I do not want all my USB-C cables to support the maximum 40 GBps speed (or whatever it is). That would require them to have all the 19 wires and shielding and all and again, would make them expensive and short.
And just imagine how much a 90W maximum speed 3 meter cable would cost...
I prefer having one power cable, one fast cable and then a bunch of disposable cables for general use cases.
I don't have any idea how thick the 19 wires have to be for USB 40Gbps (GBps?) but I imagine the answer is "not nearly that thick".
The advantage of USB 2 is that it's so simple that it's very hard to screw it up. You pretty much have to intentionally do it if you want to create a dangerous cable. Even the shittiest cable will work with the vast majority of devices (it might slightly heat up, voltage may sag at the receiving end meaning it will charge slower, but it'll somewhat work).
USB-C is significantly more complex and requires active electronics in the cable itself in some cases, and the potential for higher voltages means a faulty/recklessly-designed cable could request higher voltage from the charger and blow up whatever's connected at the other end.
And the cheap cables won't have that chip, so they'll support 60 watts.
Standardize the colors through the IF, and bam, you can tell at a glance what a cable is capable of.
Like resistors, except I don't think cables are likely to shrink too much in the future.
I will say, they're not alone. Look at Razer, for instance. Electric green is not exactly a part of the USB 3 standard.
If it's a cable property, then Apple can do whatever it wants with its cables. And everyone else can do what they want with theirs.
I think what we've learned throughout the years is that your color coding idea doesn't work out in practice due to an earlier comment stating that the USB-C market being bottom-feeder. There has to be an exact, rigid specification of USB-C cables that all of them should follow (i.e. USB4/TB4). Any more complicated than that like color coding results in giant scams by manufacturers, outright wrong, or impossible-to-find cables on an eCommerce search engine. I just don't want to deal with any of those anymore. It feels so much nicer right now to look up TB4 on AliExpress and be done with it, no more worrying or guessing.
The difference between the minimum and 100W is that the cables need to support 5 amps instead of 3. That's not much difference at all considering there are data wires too.
Supporting 240W requires a couple tiny components in the plug. That's also barely anything.
So when operating at 90W the cable only needs to be a tiny bit thicker and negligibly more expensive than a normal 15W cable.
And what exactly is wrong with that?
Ever seen musician's gear?
Even the cheapest, smallest mixer boards support XLR, RCA, 1/4", and often USB for audio I/O -- and have many of them.
Because yes, everyone has something essential to their flow, and number of configurations grows exponentially.
I guess some of those are analogue? I guess you can't squeeze those all through the same physical form factor connector. You can with digital, so let's reduce the clutter and do it!
The only insurance against “the USB-C downtime” is a subscription to Amazon Prime 24hrs delivery and another $68 (no kidding) Apple cable.
Not sure what you mean - I said didn't really apply to analogue.
3.5mm TRS, dual 3.5mm TS, dual RCA, 1/4" TRS, dual 1/4" TS, XLR cables transfer the same kind of signal, and you can easily convert between the connector with dongles.
Mixers have all of these so that you wouldn't have to.
The utility is not thinking about where the f***ing dongle is when you just want to plug something in.
I'm sure that other factors play a role. The economics of going digital would be terrible if it meant replacing a significant amount of equipment every time a new standard took over the market. Again, pointing to USB (since that it what everyone seems to associate with universal digital connections), we have seen three major iterations and a number of minor ones over the past 30 years. That's hardly the type of cycle that businesses want to hop onto given that a tiny operation requires thousands of dollars of equipment, where any given component may be anywhere from a couple of years old to over a decade old.
... None of which broke existing functionality. I can plug a full-speed device from 2000 into a USB-3 A port and it will work perfectly (as long as there is still software support for the vendor-specific drivers that might have been necessary for non-class-compliant devices).
Honestly? Presentation. That's why I consider it a dumb argument in general. People mention "Homer's car" or equivalent memes from works of fiction as some kind of ridiculous contraptions, but don't bat an eye when a show like Star Trek does the same. The big difference, IMO, is that Homer's car is delivered to you up front, a solution looking for problem(s). Star Trek's tricorder or roundabout or a starship only happen to show a different one-off feature every episode - so the realization that the equipment is deeply multipurpose, and has all those features already present, kind of flies past people who're not into this sort of thing.
A laptop should be a general computing device. So why hard-code something as weirdly specific as an SD card reader into it? Give it the functionality to have any IO device attached (USB-C) instead.
Because a laptop is a portable device, and carrying something with dongles dangling from it is something that nobody wants to do.
Now all we need is an industry standard for those.
The sanest system I've seen in a decade at least.
I don't even need a new laptop, and I still want this one.
Say what you want about the MacBook’s lack of user-replacability, but it’s basically a tiny chip board about the same size as the iPhone’s, with a big box of batteries holding it.
Not buying it. I'll take extra 2mm for 3.5mm and usb a.
(The answer is of the same level as question. If you want to imply that there's a significant gain, go prove it.)
Looking at the insides, I'm going to guess about 2 watt hours. Or they could have made it unmeasurably thinner.
> Say what you want about the MacBook’s lack of user-replacability, but it’s basically a tiny chip board about the same size as the iPhone’s, with a big box of batteries holding it.
Framework has 55 watt hours. The obsolete macbooks have 41. Both intel and M1 macbook pros have 58. Both intel and M1 macbook airs have 50.
Sounds like that lack of user-replacability isn't necessary.
Even worse when they're the pathetic failure (host-side) that is USB-C, so nothing fits without a dongle anyway. Bonus points if you have to waste one of them for charging the laptop, yay!
For example getting a 4k 60FPS HDMI dongle was going to cost me >100$, and the cheap ones I had overheated. Meanwhile a budget laptop with HDMI and integrate graphics works fine. Getting a dock with gigabit ethernet, high res HDMI, decent SD reader and a fast hub was >200$ last time I checked - and not that portable either.
That covers pretty much every common scenario when travelling.
USB-C for a connecting to a dock, HDMI for a meeting room screen, USB-A for reading a flash drive.
Homer cars is a macbook with a bunch of stupid HDMI and usb-c to usb-a dongles hanging off it so you can read a flash drive or connect to a meeting room screen.
Don't get me wrong I still prefer ethernet to avoid packet loss and reduce latency but download throughput isn't a problem I notice on WiFi anymore (since I'm also only on a 1Gbit/s line)
If you carry your laptop someplace else it might not find itself in such ideal conditions.
Labeled a cyberpunk but it looks like the perfect 90’s amateur mobile porn production studio.
Usually if you need to transfer large amounts of data you can still plug in an Ethernet cable in e.g. an office.
https://community.frame.work/c/expansion-cards/developer-pro...
I had heard that 802.11ax (Wi-Fi 6) was pretty good, and it sure looks that way so far. I have some good Cat 8 Ethernet cables, so I will experiment with that too.
if there's a bounty on it, i'll pick it up :)
You just need a good wireless router.
My desktop with ethernet is way more stable than my MBP WIFI. Also ping is noticeably lower for games.
Even if it's companies, they are "companies of people".
Seems a bit disingenuous.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
I was unable to come up with a good faith and plausible interpretation; others found one that I'd missed, and thus I retracted my objection. The author apparently later confirmed their interpretation, but that was not factored into my retraction, and is not relevant to the guideline I'm trying to adhere to.
To your comment about "disingenuous", I've spent most of my life being misunderstood for making perfectly logical statements that other people decided were some sort of slander instead of trying to understand in good faith given the context that I'm a nerd with social disorders. So I'd prefer to avoid being upset with someone else over a misinterpretation when I wish others would be less upset with me about them.
Thanks for the honest perspective!
I’m a longtime MacBook user myself, and I do like my new Air, but I have two adapters plugged into it half the time.
At some point you have to conclude Apple is fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can.
Of course, Apple could pull it off if they really wanted. They’ve done it it with iPads. But please don’t frame it as customer trolling. We’re better than that here.
And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years.
> so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple.
I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C:
* the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector
* the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch
I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.
Not if you migrate to the standard that every other device uses. Isn’t that the exact advantage of a universal standard?
I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it.
> but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that
I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they?
It disproves your point from multiple directions:
1. It demonstrates that Apple has no qualms about abandoning proprietary connectors and leaving an entire connector ecosystem stranded overnight.
2. It demonstrates that said connector ecosystem has no qualms about adapting to a new proprietary connector - let alone a standardized one.
And no, I know of precisely zero people upset about switching away from the iPod connector. The only thing about which anyone is upset about is the fact that Apple chose a different proprietary connector instead of using that opportunity to standardize.
> I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they?
The bigger players absolutely do manufacture their own accessories, but that's secondary to my point: that the accessory market readily adapted to phone manufacturers switching connectors on its own. Apple, if anything, would have an easier time for the exact reason you indicate: Apple has control over the Apple accessory ecosystem, and can use that control to put additional pressure on accessory makers.
What do people think they're saying by saying this? No, this has literally happened here by one of "us" so "we" are clearly not better than this. Heck, "we" have done and are continuously doing far worse than this.
Ample evidence for “Apple […] fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can?” Please elaborate.
Speaking of good faith, a good faith reading of their comment would be that they think Apple is intentionally maintaining a non-standard connector for their smartphone range despite knowing that switching to USB-C would be beneficial to their users.
Alleging that Apple acts in bad faith hardly seems like a violation of HN guidelines. If anything, the claim that they put the needs of the users first would seem the preposterous one as one would expect them to be beholden to their shareholders (and thus profit) above all, not their customers, and there are plenty of reasons why maintaining their own connector might be more profitable.
“Acting in bad faith” seems like the opposite tail end to me. There’s still a huge bell-shaped curve in between.
According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal, but if any law enforcement actually cared to protect people from wealthy corporations, we probably wouldn't have any climate change, tax evasion, planned obsolescence, science-denial smoking ads, corporate land grabs, companies stealing water supplies from local populations... As always, laws that protect the weak from the powerful are betrayed, while laws that protect the powerful from the weak are strongly enforced.
I doubt the USB-C durability is a large scale problem. I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues.
This isn't an effective point as the "smartphone world" is plagued by ephemeral devices which are either susceptible to programmed obsolescence or are caught in an upgrade treadmill due to a myriad of reasons (non-replaceable batteries failing, screen problems, camera issues, hardware failing due to wear, blocked software updates, fads, etc..)
However, i'm fully aware these were not the arguments presented by Apple when they refused the USB standards. If Apple cared for durability, which they definitely don't [0], i'm sure a lot of people would appreciate that and maybe standards could be improved across the industry.
The fact that Apple never cared for any form of standard that i know of [1] does not give them a lot of credit.
[0] They pioneered making it very hard to replace your own battery and flipped the finger on everyone by using non-standard screws on purpose. Seriously, how can it be legal to sell a product which requires any form of tooling to change a battery?! Let's not even get started on software obsolescence on iOS/macOS...
[1] USB and VGA, sure, because they were forced on them. Maybe FireWire? But even then i'm not sure it was a standard back when Apple started using it... On the software side, apart from email, DNS and WWW clients they also don't respect any standard protocols: AirPlay, iCloud, etc.
That is false. The EUC program was about PSUs, not device ports, and Apple was compliant by providing PSUs with detachable cables. Furthermore the EUC never legislated on the subject, they considered that the voluntary covenant worked well enough and no legislation was necessary.
> Apple has changed its connectors since socket interoperability became effective and they could have adopted the standard.
They were already complying and the “standard” at the time (micro-usb) was bad, not using it was a good thing.
> They just purposefully ignored the consumer-respecting standards in order to keep their 40$-connector business flowing.
At this point you’re just outright lying.
> According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal
You are, and I want to make it clear that this is an objective affirmation, high as a kite.
Are we talking about the same thing? You seem to reference this memorandum of understanding [0] promoted by the European Commission (and signed by Apple), whereas i reference further developments such as this vote [1] which was widely advertised in the press at the time.
I am unaware whether that vote was actually turned into a regulation, but i am fully aware that the European Commission is not the entity deciding on regulations in the EU (although it has way too much power to overrun the EU parliament).
> the “standard” at the time (micro-usb) was bad, not using it was a good thing
OK micro-USB was not the best. Still much better than using custom proprietary connectors overall. Just look at how much money/resources was saved by reusing existing cables: do you remember the hot mess we were in in the early 2000s when a phone charger broke, to find a spare compatible one?! Now i can't remember the last time i had to buy a phone charger, because there's an abundance of standard cables. It's a net win for me and my wallet, and a net win for the environment.
Also, not going with a standard you deem bad is fine... if you're working to either improve the standard or replace it with another one. Which Apple never did, as they were happy to have their custom hardware which their fanatic customers would buy no matter the price.
> At this point you’re just outright lying.
I may be misinformed on specifics, but i'm for sure not lying. If you're impying that Apple (or any multinational corporation for that matter) are good faith, you have some research to do on how industrial capitalism operates and its actual consequences on people.
>> According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal
> You are, and I want to make it clear that this is an objective affirmation, high as a kite.
OK i'm high as a kite, maybe? Does that make my message wrong on every aspect? Apple has been known to and condemned for breaking many european regulations already [2] [3] [4] [5], often engaging in actions they knew were illegal. I'm not a lawyer so i can't comment on the technical legality of their Lightning connectors, but i can for sure as a european citizen say that they knowingly and willingly violated the spirit of the law to further their profit.
And as a pseudonymous person on a random orange forum, i can say you should take more time to correct facts with actual sources, instead of defending evil corporations while accusing your peers of lying.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
[1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20130923IP...
[2] https://www.dw.com/en/apple-fined-11-billion-in-france-for-p...
[3] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51413724
[4] https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/18/apple-has-finished-paying-...
[5] https://www.politico.eu/article/apple-fined-in-italy-for-mis...
Not sure if it's measured as significant, but it's the sort of thing that RF engineering concerns itself with (preventing anything from detuning antennas or otherwise raising the noise floor).
... or because Lightning has a commercial "preferable profile" - it's another form of lock-in, and at the hardware level no less; such an extremely desirable feature, from a commercial perspective, is very, very hard to give up. It would open the door to a world where phone accessories are effectively universal, and surely we can't have that.
Given that literally every other smartphone on the market has a USB-C port, i'd say this is not the reason why Apple used a non-standard connector, failing (voluntarily) to comply with European interoperability laws/standards.
Sep 2012 for lightning shipped, and USB-C not ratified as a standard until Aug 2014.
Apple was not exactly unaware of these developments, as they have repeatedly signed the memorandums of understanding surrounding charger interoperability, according to wikipedia.
USB has to go on devices where the port already represent a sizable fraction of the cost, and there is a race to the bottom to whoever will produce the least expensive parts, and of course, it is shit. If lightning was standard, we would probably see a lot more failures, simply because not everyone has the same quality requirements as Apple.
Of course, USB doesn't have te be terrible, but when you compare USB to lightning, you compare a mixed bag of good and bad parts to only good parts. To be fair, you should only compare USB implementations from reputable, expensive brands against lightning.
In this context USB-C has failed hilariously, given how much do reliable full-featured USB4 cables cost.
whereas USB micro-A is 6.85*1.8mm².
The difference might not be very noticeable, but USB-C is has around 3 times the area of USB micro-A.
So no idea about RF engineer comparisons, but Apple seems to have stopped waiting for consensus on what USB-C would be, in wanting to ship something thin before Samsung and Google and LG could even design something thin, by almost 2 years.
Aug 2014: usb-c standard written, so no devices yet.
this ordering keeps being overlooked in comments.
I wonder if some research suggests a port change would stall phone upgrades among enough users of earlier models, and that phone upgrades are lucrative.
The socket is the most expensive part of the connection and when it breaks, it’s bad news. If you’re lucky and the bean counters didn’t overrule engineering over a microcent saving, the socket is on a daughter card otherwise you’re stuck with a one-port-down device, or an expensive motherboard replacement.
Instead, the Lightning connector is as stupid as it gets, worst issue is pocket lint you can easily remove with a toothpick
USB C on the other hand has all the pins cable-side so there isn't anything to worry about ramming whatever you fancy into your phone or laptop since it's just a PCB with pads on rather than anything you can bend.
I guess only a mechanical engineer can settle the argument. Anyone?
As for pins vs pads, you can make pads almost arbitrarily more durable by increasing the gold plating thickness, whereas it's really hard to make pins not bend.
Instead all the lint collects around a hair-thin port insert which has all the pins on and can be just easily broken while trying to clean the lint.
I've removed tons of lint from my two iPhones for years, and both lightning ports work like they've worked as in day one.
It's just I'm carrying my phone in a jeans pocket, and I use an iPhone for 7 years or so. :)
I do have to say that USB-C seems to be much more lint-prone than micro- or mini-USB. I have never needed to dig out any lint on my previous phones, but have had to do so a fair few times on my latest phone.
I don't remember digging lint out of any previous USB generations either. Only a couple of USB-A connectors, which were integrated to some smaller MP3 players (yes, I remember them!).
There may be a kinda-permanent place, where one using their laptop most of the time. I don't see any problem having a dock station there with all the the ports and a power routed via single USB C or Thunderbolt port.
The problem is not the industry. The problem is people using laptops where they should use desktop computers. Which are, coincidentally, are modular and expandable through the roof.
Given that the cheapest USB hub allows you to plug in half a dozen USB-A devices and SD cards, and given that frequently they are not used at all by anyone, why would it be preferable to add 3 dedicated ports instead of just using one of the four available USB-C ports?
The same goes to the HDMI and phone/mic ports.
In fact, nowadays you have monitors that not only support video over USB-C but also serve as USB-A hubs, which means that with a single USB-C connector you can get everything you mentioned in your example.
Sure, if you do some weird stuff or have an extreme use case, I can see why you would want more built in ports, but for the majority of users, they only plug in the charging cable and maybe video out.
2. Most people that do need them, only need them for connecting to their own stuff, so they can just keep the dongle attached to the peripheral
And also, if you want to be able to switch out your recessed dongles, you will need to keep track of them in your bag.
I don't understand how anyone can come up with that conclusion. I mean, your "cheap plastic dongles" jab is actually a testament to the extent of how superb it's interoperability is. I mean, you're for some reason complaining that we are free to even plug in "cheap plastic dongles" to a high-end device when in reality this means that we can even plug in the cheapest "plastic dongles" and expect it to work. How is this a bad thing?
Back to the "cheap plastic dongles" complain, I do use one from time to time, and the reason is quite simple: I had USB-A devices which I use for years but I also have a couple of laptops which only pack USB-C ports. Should I throw away perfectly good hardware just because a random guy on the internet dislikes cheap plastic dongles? Should I base my purchasing decisions on whether a laptop supports legacy ports? Or should I just spend $10 on a dongle intended to be used occasionally and stop worrying about inane details?
Those who prefer spending their time on relevant things don't even realize that complaining about the proper etiquete of pairing peripherals with computers is a reason for anyone to waste their time. Why do you?
> So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles").
It's juxtaposing two types of dongles: the common, cheap, plastic ones, and the sleek, integrated ones from Framework's laptop, in order to show that Framework's aligns better with the design ethos of the device itself.
> Should I throw away perfectly good hardware just because a random guy on the internet dislikes cheap plastic dongles? Should I base my purchasing decisions on whether a laptop supports legacy ports?
Again, you're missing the point. Both of these types of dongles will support your USB-A devices without you throwing anything away in your pique. One will just look good, feel good, and integrate with the machine you're using, while the other won't.
I would love it if all my devices had transition to usb-c, but they haven't. I still occasionally need usb-a and sometimes I need an hdmi out. So... that's what I have. And if I stop needing usb-a I'll get rid of it and put in another usb-c. You could even do a single usb-c port and then 3 storage attachments if you wanted. Nobody is ever going to sell a laptop like that, but for someone who really needs storage and doesn't care about connectivity that might be perfect.
If you're okay with dongles then you're probably fine. I'm not. They clutter up the workspace, occupy permanent space in my bag which is annoying, and often enough aren't around when I actually need them.
It means when one port wears of, fixing it is easy, cheap, and doesn't immobilize your machine.
It means you can change your port to fit an hdmi or ethernet as needed, without having the stuff coming out your laptop, all ugly and taking space on the desk.
Unless they've done research that shows the type C port on the main board is a common point of failure and needs soldering to fix I don't see the point. I've had to clean lint out of ports but I've never broken a type C port on a computer.
That said they may be planning for a situation where you bring your own modules or buy from a third party if you wish -- it is an open design after all. Consider the enterprise use case. An org could have a batch of USB-C modules for replacement that they source from a third party for a cheap price, and then order the laptops themselves on demand.
Framework is all about reducing waste, so only giving users what they ask for is part of that.
It only reduces waste if mainboard/laptops are discarded due to a failed charging port. Does that happen often with type C connections on mainboards?
More importantly, they're also built into the price estimate already, so when it says "$999" or whatever, that's including four $9 cards. It doesn't cost you any more to switch some of them for USB-A's instead, and other choices like HDMI, Micro SD, whatever, will be an upcharge.
A more savvy (sneaky?) approach might be to say that 4 cards are included and then only quote the increase over the base price for the things like HDMI that cost more, but I suppose they wanted it to be seamless in terms of how the pricing appears if you want to order more than 4.
Obviously there's a real sense in which engineering went into having this system and the things take up space, so there's a cost to having them, but I don't think calling them an upcharge is really legitimate; they're built in to the quoted prices.
I was looking at the DIY edition and the price is not included in the estimate so it is an increase in price to get any modules. Looks like you are looking at the prebuilt options and I see those do include 4 type C modules in the standard configurations and price. I think they should do the same for the DIY editions and let you remove them if you want.
Luckily, USB-C means you don't have to buy any accessory from Apple, and have the world of low cost peripherals at your disposal, like the $13 version on Amazon [1].
1. https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/re...
Efficient markets hypothesis. Apple's cable costs $70 because it's guaranteed to work.
Regardless, the port can be what you need it to be or just a useful USB-C, you aren't tied to whatever ports the OEM thinks you'll need forever even though it may only be valued by a small number of consumers.
That small number is still enough to drive sales for FrameWork. I'm interested if I need a better laptop and I sit at a desk with desktop in use almost all the time. This appeals to those that interested in more control over their device in configuration, expansion or modifications, and the various ports and IO options. I can't say I'd buy many of the USB modules (rarely would use most anyway) but the mentality is there and I so far have trust in the product. It's not meant to appeal to GAMERS or Enterprise execs, just those that want more control over their devices.
Framework offers a 1Tb storage module for their ports! I backup my root OS via ZFS snapshot to USB every so often now. How great would it be to have a storage port that's all the recent snapshots of your important datasets. And, the possibilities are endless. The fact that they don't change the form factor of the laptop and that they're always attached is actually a big deal.
A single multi-port dongle with Hdmi, extension USB-C and USB-A makes it so that I connect 1 thing to my laptop at my desk. And you don't have to press the whole laptop on some weird device that can scrape that back of your laptop.
If more people had experienced docking stations of 10 years ago they would also be excited for these dongles.
At least the "modular port" adapters are not dangling from the side of a laptop as the dongles do. Dongles totally ruin the esthetics of otherwise slick MacBook for me.
I beg for an age where monitors and drives plugged into Macbooks worked again without flickering and random disconnects you get with dongles.
Many other laptops aren't modular - but they offer more than enough ports to make up for it.
You need at least 1 USB-C port for charging. If you want to be able to use an external mouse and keyboard without a hub, that's 2 USB-A ports that you need. That leaves you the choice between having one USB-C port OR HDMI for the last port. There isn't even an Ethernet option at all. And you still get the potential downsides of the ports being adapters from USB-C, if I understand correctly.
If you grab a Lenovo P14s, you can't swap one of the two RAM sticks (limiting you to 48 GB), opening it takes a little bit more work, and replacing some of the more integrated components is going to be harder (SSD is trivial). In exchange, you get 2x USB-A, 2x USB-C, HDMI, MicroSD, and full-sized (not flip-out/break-off) Ethernet. Plus an optional built-in smartcard reader, plus some proprietary docking port extension around one of the USB-C ports. Looking at the Gen 2, you can get that at around 3/4 of the price with a similar or better config (including a somewhat serious GPU) as long as you order on the weekend (when Lenovo's non-ripoff pricing is in effect), and you can also add a fingerprint reader and NFC if you want.
The Framework laptop has upgradeable RAM, but you will have to upgrade it yourself (discarding the RAM that comes with it) if you want more than 32 GB, and no matter what, it won't ever support more than 64 GB. Is supporting at most 64 GB really that much better than a laptop with 64 GB soldered in?
By the time you want to upgrade the CPU, the mainboard won't be compatible, so what's really there to upgrade?
> They don't even offer the obvious "2 in 1" dongles where one dongle would contain e.g. two USB-A ports.
I would have thought that by making the expansion ports slightly wider, including 2 USB-A would be possible.
At my side gig running livestreams, I often end up with more than 4 USB-A devices connected, unfortunately, so with USB-C charging and HDMI, I'd need a dongle to use this device even with such a 2x USB-A expansion.
- USB-A dongle for wireless mouse
- External USB-A sound card (to connect the mixer board)
- External USB-A camera
- External USB-A flash drive to load up PowerPoints etc provided by the presenter
- ... and then maybe I need to plug in my USB-A Yubikey to authenticate. Or a 2nd flash drive.
That said, using a USB-C hub/dongle for cases like mine isn't the end of the world.
FWIW, if I understand you correctly, AIUI you can order the "DIY" Framework with no RAM at all, so there's no need to discard anything--but also, just looked now & you can also order the DIY edition with 64GB.
> By the time you want to upgrade the CPU, the mainboard won't be compatible, so what's really there to upgrade?
The mainboard! (Well, that's Framework's plan at least.)
And the mainboards can run standalone too, so you in theory you can use it to automate your house in the future or something too. :)
(With regard to the 2-in-1 aspect, I think it's important to remember that this is Framework's first product range, they need to limit their scope to not spread themselves too thin.)
And people are already starting to experiment with hacking together their own modules, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_uOzNt-xwY who was prototyping with off the shelf "magsafe" style adapters & essentially "rehousing" a wireless mouse dongle.
So with a "universal" wireless mouse + keyboard dongle rehoused in a module you could get two of your ports at least. :)
Yes. Normally some people (like me) can't afford to buy the highest spec laptop. Thus, I'll be going with a lower memory and storage version of a machine, and then expect to upgrade the RAM and storage when I've got enough. That's exactly what I did with my current Thinkpad T440. And for a current gen Apple, I can either buy a 8 or 16GB machine, and the price difference is pretty significant for me.
For those who have different needs than vendor provides - permanent or temporary - recessed or not, or in other words part of computer or something I need to carry/lose/forget/misplace can be a huge huge difference.
No, my workflow hasn’t transitioned to 100% USB c. I doubt it will. I will always want to plug in a HDMI monitor sometime for example.
No, I refuse to use products that require me to carry and lose shitty dongles and hubs. I refuse.
That’s also why I’ve never purchased a phone without a headphone jack, because I love listening to music on my Moondrops or whatever IEMs I like.
It is a "gimmick", but if you are frequently shuffling your laptop around, having a bag clear of dongles and "floating" stuff is a world of difference.
I mean, even thinness in laptops is a gimmick (it's actually the first thing I'd do away with to get maintainability, battery life and better cooling/performance/noise — fanless, anyone?), but it sells like hot cakes.
Dongles significantly spoil the portability experience.
It is also probably mechanically much more robust, if you plug cables into your dongle box instead of into the (motherboard mounted) port directly. If one of the dongle boxes breaks, it should be cheap to exchange.
Abstracting the ports makes a ton of sense. I have some hardware laying around - headphones, e-reader - which is perfectly good, but part of me wants to replace it just because it would be much nicer to have USB-C everywhere instead of micro usb. I could see this as something which could significantly extend the lifetime of the hardware by removing those types of compatibility concerns.
Headphone jack gone? Get the AirPod. Oh BT drains the battery faster of already sub capacity battery? Why don’t you have a power bank yet? And yeah, keep it on you always. Isn’t that normal? Or Apple has a shiny battery pack. Maybe buy two.
Glass back breaks? Well, you gotta lose something for wireless charging. But I don’t do wireless charging. Why not? Go buy another thing.
There was this TV show and there was something like “happy to comply” in that.
but the idea of needing a FN dongle whenever I want to do something is FN archaic. Plus they are over-priced, bulky and are much prone to ultimate failure of either the port (from flexing about when youre on a soft surface like a bed or something.
I have Two AOC USB screens that I use - so I have one laptop, three screens and it all fits into my backpack. the external USB screens are the only "dongles" I want.
If you want good aftermarket batteries, KingSener has a solid reputation. Only go for aftermarket batteries that are upfront about being aftermarket and are open about the cells they use and well reviewed, or for sealed Lenovo batteries in original packaging.
I recently bought a brand new, sealed 72Wh original battery. It sat sealed for so long the batteries went down below 3.1V per cell and the pack locked itself. Looking at the self discharge curves I'd expect this to be the case for any actually new battery.
To make it work I had to open the battery and use a specialized charger to give it 0.1A of current until it got to 3.3V per cell, and I then programmed it to charge at 6A, after which the battery pack decided to start up.
With tlp and a 5.10ish kernel, my T480 handles light web browsing at 3-5 W depending on display brightness (wqhd display). Heavier websites, high-res video decoding, etc. will bring it up to 7-10 W. Maybe 20 W when compiling something, or when attempting to use the (worthless) Nvidia GPU (which I leave powered down most of the time).
It has a dual battery setup with a 24 Wh internal battery and a 72 Wh external battery (I use the bulbous 6-cell, but you can get a thinner one if you prefer), so even when setting the charge stop thresholds at 80% to preserve cell lifetime, the computer easily lasts all day on battery.
That being said, it would be easy to find a random laptop that either idles at something stupid or that can't go to sleep properly because of just one wacky peripheral, making Linux power management seem bad.
Half the battle is picking the right starting point (e.g. a Thinkpad), and then setting everything up so you can actually measure the power in all of the different states so that you can actually confirm that your setup works properly before relying on it and ending up disappointed at the airport.
On ThinkPads (and probably on others), you can monitor the instantaneous power consumption by poking around in:
/sys/class/power_supply/*
https://github.com/ohazi/dotfiles/blob/master/bin/battery.sh
You can use this to confirm that (for example) your wifi card is actually powering down when you ask it to.
I have a friend who I convinced to buy a Thinkpad and stick ubuntu 20.04 on it. Unfortunately he got a more expensive X1 one with an Nvidia Graphics card, it strangely overheats when he needs to charge it and plugs it into the AC. I suspect the power settings are all over the place. I've not had chance to get a log from him yet. How did you "power down" your nvidia card?
First I made sure X was working the way I wanted with Intel graphics. There are a handful of ways to do hybrid graphics on Linux, depending on what you want to be able to do, and how old your hardware is (including "I didn't even want this thing, just keep it powered off forever"). The Arch wiki has some pretty good guides [1] that are helpful even if you're using a different system.
bbswitch seems to work on my system, and the interface is really simple [2]. But there's also this page on acpi_call [3], which suggests that bbswitch is old and unmaintained and that newer systems do something different. From a quick scan, it looks like the Arch wiki also mentions this approach.
As far as drivers go, I know everyone likes to dump on Nvidia for their closed source mess, but on every system I've used with Nvidia hardware (desktops and laptops), I've found that the Nvidia drivers have universally been more reliable than nouveau, so that's what I use.
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/hybrid_graphics (poke around in "Related Articles" too)
[2] https://github.com/Bumblebee-Project/bbswitch#turn-the-card-...
On my X250 with a 72Wh external battery I can get 14h of battery life without sacrificing much of anything.
I know Bluetooth is a thing but you get the point. All of those tiny devices that people keep plugged into their laptop ports 24/7? This is a much better form factor for them, and you don't necessarily need to sacrifice a port for them either.
From what I can tell, they already did that: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards
> USB port module with an integrated Logitech wireless mouse receiver
This guy seems to be making something like that (minus the USB port): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_uOzNt-xwY
People are working on some interesting stuff. Example:
RP2040 expansion card: https://community.frame.work/t/rp2040-microcontroller-expans...
The engineers at framework seem to be very active on the forum engaging with the community.
- 2 USB-C (1 of which is used for charging, I'll probably have reason to use the other at some point with increasing USB-C adoption)
- 2 USB-A (1 for a wireless mouse, 1 frequently used for flash drives and whatnot)
- SD (used occasionally - cameras and with an adapter for micro SD in phones)
- RJ-45 (used occasionally, probably more often soon)
- HDMI (used somewhat regularly)
- Headphone jack (also built into the Framework)
So with the Framework I'd be missing out on 3 ports. I could survive with that, but it'd be pretty sub-optimal. Thankfully I shouldn't be in the market for a new laptop for 5+ years, so hopefully Framework will have more options by then.
- power the laptop
- plug in the mouse plug into its USB-A port
Also, is there any reason to believe someone wouldn't make a two-port USB-C module provided the market for such a thing exists? Maybe off-the-shelf ICs to do this aren't available (which would make this more expensive and thus less likely), but that doesn't mean that will always be the case.
The module itself works over USB-C PD, so the only effect of such a module would be to convert the new standard back to USB-C PD with all its limitations, plus the cost of conversion.
As a thought experiment: If the Framework laptop existed prior to USB-C PD, it would have been a very cool feature to be able to add a USB-C PD module and effectively upgrade the laptop to support it.
It'll be interesting to see if the internal USB-C design works out in the long run. My instinct would have been to build a larger (proprietary) internal connector for the modules that included charging, constant and switched power, USB, and as many PCIe data lines as possible.
It was better in theory than practice. You couldn't hot-swap modules (because this was 1993, after all) and driver support was iffy. I sold that laptop a few years later and didn't own another laptop until I bought my first PowerBook in 2002. I've kept dongles in my bag from time to time for connecting to external monitors, but most of the time I never really bothered with it.
That said, these days I know exactly what I want in a laptop and most mid-spec+ laptops have an abundance of what 90% of users need.
Forgotten by hardware makers, forgotten by users.
...And Cardbus after it!
My xps 13 with 2 fans can get hot enough to be unconfortable, so i can't imagine how it will be with a single fan
For me, I've never found a laptop as good as the older thinkpads at handling temps.
I don't understand how it didn't come up in any reviews, because you don't have to push it super hard to make it happen.
peak performance is fine, but sustained speed takes quite a hit.
[1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Review-I...
Very entertaining, and enlightening watch.
(A comment on the initial part of the video: Lenovo's X1 Carbon Nano has good aspect ratio screen.)
It's not just the compute devices, I've been waiting for weeks for Samsung repair technician to arrive for fixing year old fridge. I remember going to showroom when I was a kid with my dad and the sales person used to pitch availability of parts, repair centers for the consumer electronic products.
> absurd that you'd buy a laptop with a bunch
> of "hardcoded" ports that you can't ever change.
And of all these, the touchpad is by far the most important, and like you, keeps me to my Macbook.
What I LOVE about the Framework (don't have one yet) -- it hte "Cyberpunk-yness" of the thing....
Imagine the day when our kids are rummaging through a pile of various modules looking for just the right one to plug into their Deck.
This, to me, truly feels like the "deck" from Neuromancer of olde!
What will be great is once modules become a 3rd party aftermarket blast off..
Fiber interfaces, all sorts of other modules and the inevitable future HN post about fake dongles with spy-hardware from china, 'beware of keyloggers on foreign modules' etc...
I hope that certain elements are attached by magnets.
---
Can you directly attach two machines side-by-side with a USBC cable? What if you could chain multiple of these boxes together and have a second deck, which is headless and just swipe between the two desktops on the screen... One KB and Screen and two decks? I have always wanted this.
I truly think its absurd that we havent yet been able to use machines like legos - I think that these decks offer a path to that with multiple decks.
Oh and also: where is Ethernet? :)
XPS 13, $1020
* i5
* 8 GB RAM
* 256 GB storage
* 1920 x 1200 display
* 1.2 kg, 11.6" x 7.8" x 0.6"
MacBook Pro: $1300
* M1
* 8 GB RAM
* 256 GB storage
* 2560 x 1600 display
* 1.4kg, 12" x 8.7" x 0.6"
It's almost a no-brainer, even without considering the repairability, unless you like macOS. Unfortunately, not many people see repairability as a feature yet due to the toxic status quo, but this could change. I think that after brand recognition is established, this laptop could legitimately be competitive in the laptop market, and not just appeal to hardcore techies.
What counts is the majority of buyers after these techies.
It's similar the early buyers of a Tesla who could say "ahh it will be so eco I don't have to buy another car for 10 years" and, 3 years later they buy themselves the new model as they would have normally do with a combustion engine car. Consumers first.
The key point is that repairability is important and is a marketing ploy but isn't a real fundamental issue for wealthy techies. They will just get another laptop in a year or so.
It's the non techies that are important, not us! It's the majority and long tail, not the early adopters that this laptop should be for!
Why?
This is the way we end up having only mass-market, lowest-common-denominator products. Not fighting to get quality tooling for our niche is one of the important reasons we don't get any.
So you're not a techie in the sense it's being used.
Techie can mean someone who's an expert on technology, but when it comes to talking about techies as consumers, it's about people who always chase the latest and greatest.
It's tautological, you're not a techie in this context if you don't consume new tech.
In addition to repurposing some of the old electronics & the entire chassis, they have massive performance, complete repairability & upgradability, a max of 64GB RAM & 3 storage disks, all in a smallish (but thick) Thinkpad form-factor. Oh, and they come with two power supply options (USB-C and barrel jack) and have functional VGA ports and ethernet jacks. Batteries are a bit of a problem though.
That said, you should get the Air instead which is $999 with almost exactly the same specs, minus the annoying touch bar, and a tad lighter at 1.29kg.
I've used pretty much all the developer laptop contenders as daily drivers at some point. You get used to what you get used to, so marginally better isn't so important, I've found.
I'm going to pick one of the framework laptops because they look decent, but my secondary objective is to support a company that at least is walking some of the walk I want to see.
I love what Framework are doing, but integrated hardware does not immediately equal throwaway culture (saying as something who still uses their late 2013 MacBook Pro).
The main reason people buy new phones and macbooks is not that the old ones stop working, it's that the new ones are desirable, they are even slicker than the one you've got.
Using my airpods pro at least 5 hours a day since they were released, also perfect shape. Like the AirPods 2 i handed down. I'm sure they won't last forever, but they've already provided a hell of a lot of usage for 200 bucks.
I wish it was easier to find actual data on battery life of 2016+ MBP models. Googling for "how long does MacBook Pro battery last" yields mostly useless results. There's a macOS app called "Coconut Battery" that tracks battery health over time, with an optional reporting feature that uploads the data to a server for comparison purposes.[2] Unfortunately the online viewer only allows you to view data by each individual model. It might be more helpful to aggregate the data from all 2016+ models, since the battery is the same, afaik. The online viewer also doesn't show how many reports the averages are based on. I wonder if it would be possible to scrape their data, to produce an evidence-based answer to the question "how long will my MacBook probably last?", rather than relying mostly on anecdotal evidence from Mac users.
Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last.
>Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last.
This is where my view differs, since I can just hand it in for replacement, I don't have any issues with that. To me it doesn't matter at all if I can do it myself or not. Well except if you have to leave it at the Apple store for several days, then that's very inconvenient.
In general I just see it as a practical and financial question, and since I use my laptop 10 hours a day, and earn a very good salary from it, 200 dollars more or less every three years is really insignificant.
https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/
> Apple offers a battery replacement service for all MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebooks with built-in batteries.
I believe you probably mean “user replaceable” in your comments above. I do see the value in that for myself, which is why I still have my 2012 MacBook Pro. Nevertheless, I continue to my iPhone 6s after 3 battery replacements (I paid Apple for two and one was covered by them due to a recall).
I point this out because I think your criticism of Apple designing disposable hardware is less true of them than their competitors, at least in my experience. My Apple laptop and phone are the first Apple ones I’ve bought, and have outlasted my PC laptops and Androids by at least 2x.
If you want to make a criticism about Apple designing hardware that’s costly to repair, that’s something I could agree with.
The high price is not an issue for professionals, but it does mean people are _more_ likely to repair them, not less.
By the way, the 2018+ MacBook Air does have a replaceable battery, in that Apple can replace it, so by extension, users can too (if they can track down a replacement).[2] Apple must adopt the adhesive pull tab approach on the MacBook Pro. The glued-in battery is completely unacceptable.
> I think your criticism of Apple designing disposable hardware is less true of them than their competitors, at least in my experience.
Keep in mind that, as the most profitable tech company in the world, Apple deserves to be held to a very high standard. Time and time again other companies follow their lead. Also keep in mind that Apple uses this profit to actively lobby against right to repair, making things worse for everyone in the long run.
Though laptops mostly don't care about repairability and any repairability they have is usually an accident, I don't think most other laptops on the market are quite as egregiously anti-repair as the MacBook Pro.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Touch+Bar+2...
As a user, my main concern with a battery replacement is that I get a new battery, that the device continues to work, and that it doesn’t take too long. If Apple decides the best way to meet those objectives is to swap the top case, I’d still consider the battery replaced.
> Assuming it's not user-replaceable nor Apple-replaceable, can we agree that it cannot be called a "replaceable" battery?
I could agree to calling these batteries “non-user replaceable”. What you’ve described is that Apple can do it, but they replace more components at the same time.
For what it’s worth, I like MacBooks but I skipped that generation of MacBook Pros because it didn’t seem worth it to me. I bought a non retina MacBook because I didn’t like the soldered on comments. After having 3 iPhone 6s battery replacements done by Apple, I guess I’m somewhat okay with glued in components as long as _someone_ can service it.
The only reason Apple "decides" this is because they designed the laptop with a non-replaceable battery. It would cost less money and be much less wasteful for them to replace just the battery, but they can't, because it's too difficult, because they designed it that way. This isn't the "best" way, it's most likely the only way for them to do it at their scale. They replace just the battery in the MacBook Air because they designed it with a replaceable battery.
The top case is replaceable -- Apple can replace it, and so can the user, if they can source a replacement. But the battery, individually? It's not replaceable. That iFixit guide you sent is not news to me. This is what I was referring to when I said:
> Yes, technically it may be possible, but if even the company who made it thinks it's too difficult, it's not very useful or accurate to call it "replaceable".
Most people (including myself) would never consider performing this procedure on their device. Apple won't do it. You would be hard-pressed to find a repair shop that would. It's far too risky and time-consuming.
Your definition of "replaceable" seems to be "theoretically possible to replace, even if extraordinarily difficult (by design)". Under this definition, basically any part in any product is "replaceable", so it is not a useful definition. Apple could probably not have made it any more difficult than it already is to replace the battery, and they don't even do this themselves, so it's perfectly fair to call it non-replaceable. Definitions are subjective; we must collectively decide how to use the word "replaceable" in this context, and I see no reason to adopt the almost meaningless, Apple-friendly definition. For example, depending on the definition, you might even be able to say the MacBook Pro battery is "user-replaceable". Does "user-replaceable" mean "designed to be replaced by the user", or "easily replaceable by the user", or "theoretically possible to replace by the user"? If the latter, then the MacBook Pro battery is user-replaceable, I guess.
I think a better definition of "replaceable" would be "feasible to replace, at least by the company who made it", and an even better definition would be "feasible to replace by the user". Either way, your definition is not useful.
> After having 3 iPhone 6s battery replacements done by Apple, I guess I’m somewhat okay with glued in components as long as _someone_ can service it.
The iPhone 6S battery uses adhesive pull tabs like the MacBook Air, so it is (easily) replaceable (by Apple, or by users, or by independent repair shops). The screen is lightly glued on, but that's standard procedure for phones these days, and the removal process isn't too difficult, risky, or time-consuming with the right tools [1].
In fact, it has been relatively easy to replace the battery in every iPhone released since at least the iPhone 4, and every iPhone since then has scored at least a 6/10 on iFixit [2]. So, afaik, the non-removable battery is currently only a problem with these Apple products: MacBook Pro (1/10 iFixit), AirPods (0/10), AirPods Pro (0/10).
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kskal4s1sU, https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+6s+Battery+Replacement/5...
Apple adds features in attempt to lure people to 'upgrade' from a nearly identical product. Touchbar, face-id, 'apple silicon'. Most of this stuff doesn't change the value proposition of the core product. I'd say that the majority of Apple's user base is largely there for status reasons, and those people upgrade to keep the status they feel the brand grants them. As someone who isn't an Apple fan, but who uses some of their products, I am very aware there are exceptions, but I'd suspect that, like me, these exceptions also don't follow the press release driven upgrade cycle.
It's this type of consumerism that I'm personally not interested in. I want a tool, I want it be under my control. I want to be able to maintain it for its natural useful lifetime. That thinking does not belong in the culture Apple is fostering.
(Edit: and yeah, I get that Apple isn't the only culprit here, it's just that if a company seems to be fostering a culture that fits my ideals, I'm willing to compromise on 'slickness')
But if you want a tool, why do you want it to be "under your control"? I think most people are more like me, I just want a really nice computer that works well, I have exactly zero desire to replace the RAM or upgrade the SSD.
For phones the
I'll agree that it seems that currently most people are like you. They don't think about maintainability when it comes to belongings. If they care about the effects their actions have on the environment, they might want to start.
If you are buying a new phone and laptop every two years, where are you putting the old one? What happens to the toxic materials in the batteries? Did you need to have a new machined aluminum shell, or could you have just replaced the part that was bad inside it?
That all said, I don't have any illusions about changing the course of the average person's thoughts or habits via an HN post.
Like I said in the original post, I'm done with buying throwaway goods if I have an alternative. I'm happy that an option like the framework exists.
Using a laptop intensively for 5-6 years cannot be called "throwaway culture".
When it's finally unusable, Apple will recycle it for free, at least if you buy a new one at the same time. I don't know what they do with the battery, but I can't see why it would help if it was easily user replaceable.
Maybe you feel that the M1 is overhyped because you only had your previous laptop for a year or two? Coming from a 2016 MBP the difference was huge. And of course that laptop is still in use 5-6 hours a day.
Most importantly, assuming Framework is still around in 10 years, do you think you'll use it for significantly longer than 8 years, which I suppose will be the lifetime of my old MBP?
I have three old macbooks laying around that people just gave me because they didn't know what to do with them - all broken in some way. I wonder how many people actually recycle their laptops, and am worried about the answer.
I also have a 2008 MacBook and it's a treat considering its age.
So the real test of the Framework computer is not in the first week. (Although the initial impression is very impressive!) The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac. Modular hardware is limited by the availability of the parts, and Framework doesn't have the brand to convince me that they'll be around for longer than I can get my computer serviced by Apple.
No, the real test is whether you, 3 years after buying the computer, can replace the battery more easily than you could replace it on the Mac. Applecare just covers the cost of a new laptop when your Mac breaks during warranty. "Repair" is a generous way of putting that.
I dunno, this whole idea of 'trickle down innovation' that ends up coming at the expense of the working class is a very bad deal when you consider the amount of advanced technologies available today yet which have been enclosed/commoditized as 'intellectual property'.
Another example is Musk's scammy 'secret master plan' hustle that tells a feel good (yet misleading) story to the propertied class that they should 'buy a $170,000 Tesla to help make mass produced Tesla's possible for poor people'. Which is a rich story when you see that big oil companies, together with governments, suppressed viable electric car technologies for years ('Who Killed The Electric Car?' documentary). My point is that these are deep systemic issues that should be remedied at their root, instead of them being presented as something the non-propertied -class should plan and pay for, especially when you consider that we have actually already paid for it (remember we gave them those big juicy low-interest government loans).
At this point in time, buying a modular laptop like a Framework computer should have no risks involved with it.
We need to just grow many more open source standards. All that proprietary hardware and software does is remove valuable feedback loops and lessons from the commons. It criminalizes cooperation, interoperability, repairing and repurposing. Only the propertied class wins here.
All the above arguments only compound and multiply when you consider that most of the technology that exists today was developed with taxpayer backed government loans (Mazzucato: The Entrepreneurial State), meaning that, as she puts it, "we have ended up creating an ‘innovation system’ whereby the public sector socializes risks, while rewards are privatized".
I like the idea of being able to fix my gear if I'm away on vacation or there's no apple store around. In fact, I'm overall a big fan of repairability because I'm a bit of a tinkerer.
But if it's a work machine? Then I'd rather have a replacement on standby- and Apples time capsule/time machine stuff works better than other backup/restore systems I've used.. replacing a machine is a 2hr process if you have something usable in stock.
Eitherway: I work in Europe, so these machines literally cost more than a monthly salary, it's cheaper for the company to have me sit on my hands for a week than to have a spare laptop for me.
These devices are sold as "Pro" presumably meaning Professional. Not being able to work for a week is not professional. There are companies that give you a repair time in hours, not days.
>it's cheaper for the company to have me sit on my hands for a week than to have a spare laptop for me.
I'm self-employed so a week downtime cost me a week's salary. But even so, I wouldn't want to sit on my hands for a week, because I consider that unprofessional.
Things which should be fixable by the user/IT personal on site:
- the battery
- the fan
- the keyboard
- storage
Luckily I have discovered an independent certified service provider for Apple devices, which is as flexible as the Apple rules allows for repairs, but just my experiences of getting the fan of my Mac Mini fixed by Apple were horrible.
1 week is an unacceptable wait for a business computer.
One of my biggest reasons for using Apple laptops was the now-defunct Joint Venture program. I enrolled all our company laptops under that program expressly for the loaner laptop during repairs and priority support. The ability for employees to walk into the nearest Apple Store to the current client account and walk out with a loaner the same day to restore from backups and return to the client the following day was a no-brainer business expense.
Now that program has no functional replacement for that benefit, switching to Framework looks extremely attractive, especially as more of our work finds ourselves in containers.
So I took it to a nearby dell garage for them to replace the 9550 motherboard with 9570 for roughly 300$ while keeping all of the other components unchanged.
I've honestly been shocked at the level of service.
Sadly, the 9500 has moved to a different chassis so further upgrades are impossible..
I got my 16 GB Macbook Air for $1000 at Microcenter. For development purposes it's the same as a Pro, except it doesn't have a fan (and has never throttled) and doesn't have a touch bar (which is great)
The MBA is an insane value with the advent of the M1, a complete turnaround from the old days.
Also it has a trick up it's sleeve when it comes to this:
> the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless.
First off, Apple will replace the battery in a MBA for $129 (vs $200 for the MBP), so a little alarmist...
But more importantly the new Air uses stretch-release adhesive (think command strips) and doesn't require removing the logic board for battery replacements. The MBP didn't inherent this improvement.
It's no Framework but it makes it the value proposition that much sweeter...
Class-action lawsuit filed for M1 MacBook screen cracks [U] https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/16/class-action-lawsuit-screen-c...
Apple's trade-in program is pretty good. My 2012 MacBook Pro was still tradeable in 2019 for something like 400 bucks. I would consider that also if you don't want to abandon the Apple ecosystem.
Before having to use a Mac for work I preferred a P53 and an X1 as work laptops, but honestly now that I'm forced to use macOS again I don't miss Linux at all. Would be great to be able to choose though, but I'm kinda locked on Xcode because it's our build system.
The closed ecosystem and continued hardening of even access to inside of my machine is troubling and obviously anti-consumer. Those points coupled with the lack of even 32GB of RAM in an M1 model (not to mention the cost of the brand) makes my next computer a probably-not-apple machine.
You can replace the battery yourself for like 50 bucks, or have Apple do it for 2-3x that. We have MacBooks from 2013 in perfect working order at home.
[1]: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2...
[2]: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85
My 2016 touchbar MBP13 still has an excellent battery though.
Also, amortised over 3-4 years of use I don't really see why it matters if it takes 1 or 3 hours. I'll take a 2 mm thinner computer any day.
I did the same with an MBA, replacing its battery in less than an hour by virtue of the battery not being glued to the case, nor having to worry about hidden clips built into the case, nor having to carefully dig out the guts of the system and putting them back together.
The MBP is in a totally different class -- as iFixit shows, you don't start removing the battery until step 51! And they're not kidding: to get to the battery, you have to do things like remove the trackpad assembly and pry out the logic board assembly.
Sure, you can amortize the 1-3 hours of labor over years of device ownership, but at every step, you're dealing with delicate parts, putting you in danger of turning your expensive, trusty daily driver into a brick.
Batteries are a wear item, guaranteed to have to be replaced. Apple's managers, designers, and engineers could show more empathy for their customers by making it easier and less risky to replace their wear items.
I'd rather have a slim computer than one where I can easily change the battery, so they are indeed empathic to the majority of customers.
The group of people that actually want to open their computer and tinker with it is extremely small, it just happens to be loud and living on HN.
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/07/2018-macbook-air-batter...
> or if you're paying them that much to replace the entire top case assembly
The link says that "previous" MBAs had replacable batteries, and I know that 2012-2014 had it, so I don't think it was ever the case.
> For comparison, the previous-generation MacBook Air has a screwed-down battery that can be removed and replaced by Apple and its service providers without a top case replacement, in line with other non-Retina notebooks.
Also, this article was written in November 2018, and here's what it says:
> the battery can be individually replaced in the new MacBook Air [...] In all other MacBook and MacBook Pro models with a Retina display released since 2012, when a customer has required a battery replacement, Apple has replaced the entire top case enclosure, including the keyboard and trackpad.
This implies that, at least from 2016-2019, they were replacing the entire top case assembly in MBP. I have no reason to doubt they still are. The article is mainly about the MBA so it is a little confusing, to be fair.
If MacBook users could either replace the battery themselves (or take it to any repair shop if they somehow don't have a few minutes to spare), they wouldn't have to face the "repair or upgrade" dilemma until much later in the laptop's life. For Framework users, it isn't a problem at all.
Of course, having the ability to replace everything else is great, but the battery should be a given. None of the other components are "consumable", though they might still fail eventually, or you might want to upgrade them.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMVDIMmbeoA, https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+B...
Edit: I'll also mention that the fan noise hasn't been a problem for me (I rarely notice it), but that may be because I don't use too many demanding programs.
Sometimes the fans will spin up in the middle of the night for some kernel process presumably.
If I had the option to have purchased it with 1920x1080, I would have.
For what purpose? I can’t imagine a single advantage to lower resolution.
Even something as seemingly obvious like 1080p is a flawed standard because many TVs enlarge the input slightly to crop away junk on the edges, resulting in a physical 1080p screen showing an approximately 1060p image.
Without starting flames... let's agree this is subjective.
For many people the options for the Framework are preferable.
Maybe some folk prefer the alternatives, and that’s fair, but if you did some pretty objective metrics of bugs, visual inconsistencies, user workflows for standard tasks (like adding new hardware…) well, it’s impossible to deny that Apple has significantly invested in making these things “nice”.
Its really quite difficult to argue the software is really the compelling offering with Framework laptops.
You can already get that on other systems if that’s your thing, and that’s never been enough to do more than barely raise a few eyebrows from folk who are particularly keen.
Again, subjective.
How can you possibly argue that the army of programmers Apple has devoted to working on this one stack in one domain do less work than the widely distributed work done by a far smaller number of programmers on a far larger number of desktop stacks?
Don't be ridiculous.
I didn't say that the outcomes were better, just that more effort has been put in, in terms of hours-of-human effort.
That's a very different statement to "Apple has more person-years." In addition, by that measure, Windows is just as good, and works just fine on a Framework.
It's like I'm using my bike to ride down a mountain... you are using your bike to do city racing and don't understand why skinny tires and fixed gear and foot straps are not important to me.
I don’t use windows and not really a fan of spending like 24 hours a year just dealing with Linux driver issues and other headaches only to have a worse user experience.
That’s just my preference though so I’m probably never getting the foundation laptop but think it’s a cool product.
If we don't vote with our wallet, for the right thing, we deserve the worse future that we are going to get.
I do like MacOS more than Ubuntu (which I also use), and lately, customizability of Ubuntu has gone down too (As an old Mac-user, I want a menu bar, I actively dislike menus on each window) and the M1/M1X look real sweet compared to intel.
But Apple is the most anti-consumer company there is and I consider buying a Framework to give them a boost and hopefully purchase a laptop that will not need a full replacement for years. The ecological footprint of electronics is bad enough as it is, no need to reward companies that want you to throw away whole computers after 3y.
Just a reminder that the M1 MacBook Air has no fan, and is still at the top.
When choosing a laptop you of course look are more factors than just performance, but for many, that alone will be an extremely important consideration. Not to mention that - incredibly - there isn't even a conventional battery life tradeoff for that top performance. In that sense, the M1 is a no-brainer.
- a typescript React recompile causes music playing to buffer for a couple of seconds.
I wanted to love it but I much prefer my mid level Intel based MacBook Pro
I am used to work in Linux OS VM(Virtualbox and Vagrant in MacOS) and do most PHP/Python web development. It seems that Virtualbox won't be supported and There is only one Linux VM option available [UTM](https://github.com/utmapp/UTM)
I would hate to invest too much time for a new dev environment just for M1. How's your experience?
I don't use MacOS, is it still a no-brainer?
I very nearly bought an M1 Macbook, but realized I didn't want to live with currently early stage linux compatibility. I'm still thinking of buying an M1 mac mini as a little home server though - that tiny power consumption combined with such good CPU performance is perfect for that use case (although it would be nice if I could somehow attach a bunch of hot swap HDD bays to a mac mini too).
The Air gives this thing a run for its money at a (albeit $21) lower price.
That said, I’m 100% behind the Framework concept though - I like the direction they’re heading in. If I needed a Linux/Windows laptop it would be a serious contender for me.
As a dev, I feel it's not ready yet on the software support side. It will eventually come, but if we follow the "don't buy now on the promise of future updates" principle, right now not being on AMD/Intel is a downside.
What are the biggest issues you’ve seen so far from a dev perspective?
The Framework laptop has seriously got me considering moving away from macOS to Linux as a daily dev machine and keeping my Macs for home use (and music production for which I don’t want to leave Logic Pro).
But by the same token I’d love the crazy battery life, no fan noise and raw speed of an M1 for my main coding machine….
I use homebrew, and a number of stuff is still on x86 only, needing to run in a Rosetta terminal. My ruby install is one of these.
For php, php-brew couldn’t build the version I need till the end, so I bailed out of it and moved it to docker. Same for mysql 5 (upper versions seem to be available for the M1).
That was right when Hashicorp announced the Desktop pricing change, and I didn’t know what my org would do so I started checking the other options. Except docker-machine/engine is supported independently only on Intel, M1 chips need docker desktop to run containers (at least that’s my take, I’d love to be wrong).
Basically right now my local dev relies on Rosetta and docker, and I seriously think about buying an intel NUC as a side machine where I’d remote into.
I do already have a NUC running Docker and had thought about using that if needed when I move to an M1 so it’s interesting you’ve had the same idea.
Two cases where my work was impacted
1) I work with laravel running on a couple of docker containers. There's complicated bug where a memory leak caused by some low-level package all PHP docker containers rely on which is exclusive to Rosetta. It caused all my php containers to be out of memory permanently.
It's not an issue I had in the beginning, don't know the exact cause but I wasn't able to fix it once it started happening, so had to move away from docker for development (which was not problematic luckily)
2) It can't build OBS. OBS, like many other open-source software packages need a maintainer to add support for M1 build-steps. There was a major dependency that didn't have M1 build support yet, so simply not possible until that gets fixed.
This is the case for many packages, it just needs time before everyone catches up.
But for the rest it's perfect imo. The battery life is insane, the no-noise fan is insane, the no-heat is insane. Only battery/heat issues I ever get is when I game on it, which it isn't meant for necessarily either but just saying.
Edit: Oh I forgot to mention that while the keyboard feel is great, its build quality is.. questionable. One time a key just got stuck out of nowhere. Just stuck, nothing to do. I tried repairing it myself but oddly 3 months ago (not sure about now) there were no guides on how to safely tuck it loose, clean it and put it back.
I broke it unfortunately. This has not been my experience with any other laptop or keyboard ever. I hate this part of Apple's philosophy the most, "It's broken? Please give us a lot of money."
I'm talking about build quality and performance.
1. The touchpad button doesn't work when the body is flexed.
2. As another person replied, the touchpad button is unusable when the battery is swollen.
And eventually new motherboards will come up that are not compatible with your case or accessories.
At contrary, today at work we bought for 900 euros (700 without taxes), plus less than 100 euros for an extra 16Gb RAM module, a thinkpad T14, that has all the features of the base model, but with 512Gb SSD, Ethernet directly on the laptop, a better keyboard, a trackpoint, more USB ports, a fingerprint reader, and a Windows 10 Pro license.
To me it doesn't make a lot of sense this laptop. Regarding repairability, it's just like any other Thinkpad, the modular IO, what is its purpose? Also you are adding components that can break, consume power, and waste space. And still you don't provide an ethernet integrated on the laptopt itself, so you have to always carry around a USB adapter that doesn't work as reliably as an integrated one.
The preconfigured model comes with your choice of 4 ports, the options being USB-C, HDMI, microSD, USB-A, and DisplayPort. The default config is 4x USB-C, but you get to choose.
> a fingerprint reader
Framework has that too.
Anyway, as far as I understand, if you configure it yourself, it will actually cost less money. This is the cost of the preassembled version, but for example, you could buy the "DIY edition" with everything that the preassembled model has, just without Windows, for $909 (~775 euros). The price drops even further if you remove the SSD, RAM, or Wi-Fi module and buy your own.
I understand that everyone has their own priorities when it comes to a laptop. I'm only comparing laptops within the "thin and light" category here. At 1.5kg, 13" x 9" x 0.7", the ThinkPad T14 probably falls into this category, but it is slightly heavier and bulkier than the options I listed. One of my top priorities is thin/light, but I understand those more concerned about performance or # of ports and Ethernet connectivity.
Additionally, I like this company's dedication towards right to repair, and buying the laptop supports them. It's a huge bonus that the laptop has competitive specs, though.
After that, I bought a MacBook Pro and never thought about hardware ever again, except when I bought my second MacBook 7 years later.
Apple s durability and quality go a long way. And it’s « standardization » means it’s actually quite easy to replace batteries for example.
Unzipping is a single threaded task, so it's going to run at the same speed even on a 5950x.
On the software side, I am absolutely aware of what is available.
File operations do seem pretty slow on Windows. What I've noticed is that latency for individual access seems really bad. Does that latency actually scale with CPU speed?
Edit: btw, what were you using to unzip the file on Windows? How about Linux (unzip?)
What Linux kernel/distro, what sort of zip file (large files vs small, encrypted?)
Currently, my primary working environments are some sort of Unix, with CDE, stumpwm, or dwm - pretty ultralight environments by today's standards. I do think these environments can be described as "fast".
As to the actual machine in question (with the i7-4700k), that's my gaming desktop. It's run mostly Windows over the years, with some OS X thrown in there. For the past year or so it's been pretty much just OS X, but I do boot into Windows from time to time for this or that. Neither of these OSes are as fast as the stripped down environments that I prefer, but neither is appreciably faster or slower than the other, either, in my experience (unless something is broken; I could of course tell you horror stories about both platforms). From my perspective, both of them are enormous inefficient monstrosities, but the hardware is also really fast.
> In my experience linux was about 30% faster for typical web development tasks (npm install, angular build, …)
Yeah, these types of things aren't great on Windows. Especially if you run into corner cases, a lot of tools that were written for Unix environments go to dog on Windows. I don't know what most of the individual issues are, and I don't really know that it's even a matter of CPU (vs. operative latency, deadlocks, etc.). But the poster I was responding to seemed to be saying that Windows itself is too much for a modern i5 to handle, and that just isn't my experience.
It runs Linux wonderfully well. Don't know if they still make new (2021?) versions of it though.
I’m struggling to see the feature in OPs article considering that they have gone through more laptops since I bought my MacBook Pro 2016 than I’ve owned laptops in my life.
Why was it necessary to replace a thinkpad every year, and what makes you think that the author isn’t just going to replace this one?
I have a feeling I’m going to have my MacBook Pro 2016 for longer than the author has this one.
I do support repairability, and I really don’t see why we let companies get away with ducking it over, but at the same time, there are now 3 different versions of the fairphone, sort of defeating the point of it. I’m sure frame.work is better than the fairphone, but I think you get the point I’m trying to make.
Unless you get faulty hardware, you’re probably better off taking good care of it. I mean, I still have an old 14” iBook PowerPC that works perfectly well with Linux. Its hardware is obviously not up to my current needs, but I don’t see why my current MacBook Pro 2016 won’t live with me for another 5 years at least. And by then I hope legislation has forced Apple into making things more repairable.
But there isn’t actually a very good reason to replace your hardware unless it stops working. At least not in my mind, and none of my Apple products have stopped working on their own. I’ve been luckier than some people in that regard, but I also still own a Sony tv from the early 00s that’s perfectly fine when hooked up with the MacBook so sometimes it’s also about buying the things that are tested so you don’t end up in one of the famous Apple recalls or the issues that come from them.
It’s very anti-consumption not to buy the newest thing, I know, but I sort of think the swap to frame.work for the sake of buying something repairable defeats the entire purpose of wanting something repairable unless you make the swap after your old machine literally breaks
Anyone know of a Linux equivalent to Alfred and BetterTouchTool? I can get by with Gnome but these two tools are such a workflow gamechanger. Workflows and copy buffer with seamless integration in particular.
I also really like that you can bring your own hardware in a lot of cases. For example I had an extra M.2 SSD laying around, so I ordered mine without one and installed it. You can also do this with the RAM, and even the wifi card.
The only thing I’ve disliked about it so far is the arrow keys on the keyboard. Having full size keys for left and right but split keys for up and down feels weird, I would have preferred all full size arrow keys and a small right shift(because let’s be honest, when was the last time you used the right shift key?).
For anyone curious about Linux on it, I’m running Arch and had basically 0 problems specific to the device. It’s my understanding there were some incompatibilities with certain kernel versions before so maybe some of these problems exist in distros like Debian with an older kernel, but I have had no issues.
All in all, it’s just an exciting project and nice to see innovation in the space that isn’t just rounded corners or a sleeker edge or something where they take modularity or performance away for the sake of aesthetics.
I'm still waiting for mine to arrive (in the next batch) but I plan to install Manjaro when it does, and am cautiously optimistic that it'll be mostly painless.
[1] https://community.frame.work/t/arch-linux-on-the-framework-l... [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Framework_Laptop
Not to say that it guarantees anything, it's just nice I think that Framework cares about Linux compatibility and is acting on it.
Worth a try if you don't have the habit yet: use the pinky of your right hand when typing capitals with the left hand and the pinky of your left when typing capitals with the right.
Yes, I see, that would be better if I could get used to it. (I'm pretty sure I use left only.)
Mine BTC?
I generally use the shift key closest to the key I'm typing. For keys near the center, I favor the right shift key.
The keyboard would absolutely be the show stopper for me, if I didn't just get a new laptop last year. The lack of dedicated Page Up and Page Down keys is unacceptable.
I've used Chromebooks without them before, and I still to this day can never remember how to select while jumping to the end of the document, for example. It's like four keys all pressed at the same time in a very awkward way.
Down - Cursor trajectory
Fn - Page instead of Line
Command (Alt) - Document instead of Page
Shift - Text selection mode
(But I had to hit the keys and then look at my hands to figure out what they were, because I'm just used to keeping the modifier layers in muscle memory, so I could be wrong.)
I used to not use it till I found typingclub.com and finally learned how to use a keyboard proficiently.
Strangely though, for control sequences, I basically exclusively use the left control key.
> Yesterday, I put my 2019 Thinkpad on my pile of "laptops to refurbish and donate." I've bought a new Thinkpad almost every year since 2006. I think that's over.
wat
As a quick aside, if you're ever one of the 15 people who will likely do this, buy a Thinkpad dock. They're cheap, and it basically triples your I/O!
I think you know the answer.
"Self described early adopter consumer sees early adopter friendly project and supports it"
One might see some cognitive dissonance between the state of mind of being pro recycling and supporting reduce and reuse and being an eager consumer. However early adopters dance this line and lead the way for the masses to come after.
All a matter of perspective or framing.
I sincerely hope they're around long enough to make a 15" version. My old eyes can't do 13" any more, unfortunately.
They are super light and all three fit in my backpack really easily....
I HIGHLY recommend.
I dunno, it just felt weird to me to be like "I loved this product I used for years, but it sucks now" and then say "I love this new product I've barely used!" without a hint of self-awareness that all the optimism and initial love for a product in the world won't keep it from turning into a pile of junk. How long until a "I went back to Thinkpads" article? A year, two, three?
For example, he notes that he hasn’t road tested it yet:
> However! Most of my use of this computer was from my sofa, while I was recovering from hip-replacement surgery. I haven't road-tested it at all.
> But I'll note here that if it turned out that a component failed due to my usual rough handling, I could replace it with a standard part in a matter of minutes, myself, in whatever hotel room I happened to be perching in, using a single screwdriver.
That reads to me as a pretty specific disclaimer and that he hasn’t stressed the durability, but more that he has a plan if it isn’t as durable.
(Though it’s a long article, and maybe he said something about durability that I missed)
- we had 5 - 10 years of great laptops (or more likely 7-12 since people will put more effort into repairing their current models if the new are worse.)
- if they do this the market had already been proven and anyone with a few spare million $ can go and grab it.
We need criticisms that call bullshit on undeserving praise.
I kinda feel like he explained what happened to ThinkPad. They went from IBM which for $150 per year would send out a tech anywhere in the world to fix your problem to Lenovo who… let’s just say isn’t as good.
And in this case, what’s the harm? If a laptop doesn’t work out, it can be replaced. This one just got released, so a long-term reliability test isn’t even possible yet.
Also, using a laptop for a month is more than enough time to get a feel for how things might play out over the long term. He was clearly impressed enough to commit to an opinion in a short space of time. If his opinion changes, I'm sure we'll hear about that too. I think that's fair enough.
I am excited over seeing this project, but these things have stuck out for me:
1. I am concerned over long-term screen hinge strength. I can't see the build on it, but I will not cheap out on that after dealing with bad hinges (screwed into plastic, not a metal frame on a Dell)
2. I am concerned over the durability of the screen. I am not an expert at this, but I have no worry over the screen if I chuck it in a bag or my cats who sometimes stand on the top of the laptop when I put it on the floor.
3. I watched Louis Rossmann's takes on it - I was hoping he would go into the tactile feel of the keyboard. I can wait though for any commentary on that from a ThinkPad user. I can try to stop using the TrackPoint (would hate unlearning that) but a good laptop keyboard is essential. (I declare the best laptop keyboard I ever experienced is the one I have on my t430s. Lenovo has made the key travel lower and lower over the years. The t470p and others around that year I used is OK, but doesn't compare really.)
If anything were to go wrong though, hey, I can at least repair it :D But, I continue to stare in wonder over this. I'd love to be proven otherwise on these points.
So, a Surface Laptop 3?
Same here. I’m addicted to it and can’t get over the tactile feel. I guess this will go the way of the mobile phone keyboard, assuming it hasn’t already.
It would be nice to see some objective stats on this though.
My 6 year old iMac has a fan which sounds horrible, would be easy to clean if I just could access it... and while the HD is actually still upgradable, I can't reach it any better than the dirty fan.
And of course there are batteries, which do fail quite often after like 5 years and are also not meant to be exchangeable. In Europe, it might be difficult to get Apple to exchange the battery of older laptops though.
In the event that I must get a non-m1 laptop, I can definitely see myself buying the framework laptop and putting ubuntu on it.
I got the framework laptop, which should be able to push the intel chip to the max 28 TDP. I heard the fan is big, and thus not annoying. I am curious to see how it will turn out (My batch 3 order gets delivered tomorrow).
My experience has mostly been that when any work is being done, the fans spin up. It's jarring when you're trying to focus on the problem at hand.
https://www.csoonline.com/article/3220476/researchers-say-no...
No. You can boot and run an x86 without ME and most of that other stuff.
> It makes total sense that there are mandatory supervisor chips at this point
ME, secure boot, UEFI have nothing to do with virtualization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKH5nGLgi08
At 47:10, they mention that they haven't found anything evil. Ofc, this isn't hard proof, but if I trust anyone's answer, then it's theirs. I think the likelihood of it being malicious is nonzero, but small enough that I'd condemn active backdoors into the realm of conspiracy theories.
There's always the possibility of it being exploited by others, but c'mon: Basically ANY other exploit would be way easier to distribute and activate than one in the PSP.
EDIT: did I said something wrong? -2 votes already.
When I went to Malaysia, My 7 years old Asus N550 was malfunctioning and I needed to get a new laptop. In my previous company I got a zenbook 13" and loved it, but the ones in Malaysia were only sold with 8GB ram. I've been using 16 for 7 years and there was no way to go back. I wanted 10th gen intel (For the improved integrated GPU) and my only options which sold 16GB were Dell xps (500$ more expensive) and Lenovo (1000$ more expensive), but the latter would arrive in 3 months.
I got a Dell xps as my only option, and I hate it. One reason is that the specific cpu I got did not get the improved GPU (Intel's shady marketing and lack of transparency is to blame). Another reason is that the fingerprint reader has no drivers for Fedora, while Dell advertises the laptop as Linux ready.
Now I need more ram for my new activities and I want to bump it to 32 but I cannot do that.
Manufacturers tell us that they need to solder ram to MB to be able to give high performance for a thin and light form factor. Framework shows that this is not true.
Also, see how Framework tries to be transparent and informative? It clearly tells you that the tiny performance improvement by i7-1185G7 over i7-1165G7 is not worth the 400$ difference for most people.
I will get rid of this Dell Xps and get a Framework as soon as it's available in my area.
Most of the mobile intel chips have been limited to 16GiB max for quite a bit, only the very recent ones go to 32GiB
Which XPS is it? I believe most of their fingerprint readers should be supported in recent libfprint versions.
. 15 or 16 inch chassis
. 4k display (OLED, if possible)
. largest battery they allow on an airplane
. no keypad
. 2x speakers facing up
. AMD, if possible
. arrow keys as Apple does it
. charge a premium for this - ppl will pay it!!!
Basically just copy what Apple does but with a little customization. I know this would be difficult but hoping someone from framework will read this. No one wants to buy a dell XPS but its the most popular windows laptop in its class for a reason.
What customization do you really need?
It feels like a solution looking for a problem.
If that laptop had been a Framework laptop, I could have just ordered the part, swapped it out, and moved along.
Being able to upgrade components also lets you buy at a cheaper price initially and then grow it to suit your needs later. Also the laptop will be probably end up being usable for a decade or more.
I recently upgraded my 2015 MBP's SSD from 256GB to 1TB (it's the last upgradeable macbook). It's great to get a significant speed boost on read/write times and more disk space. And it only cost me about $100-150 to make it happen.
The 2015 MBP is still fast and snappy for my purposes, it's hard to justify getting a new laptop yet.
No. NO!!
The left, right, and down arrow keys all on one level, and the up arrow key alone above the down arrow key. Makes it easy to find the right key by touch alone.
Basically late-2015 to 2020 macbooks had shitty keyboards.
I think the sense that space is wasted by those deadzones above the left and right keys is a powerful motivator of these "hybrid" keyboard designs. I do prefer to have them all half-height if any of them are, as it does make it easier for me to "touch type" the arrows.
Apple doesn’t do this. Apple instead does the correct thing: target PPI. Apple keeps their laptops around 226 PPI. The Framework laptop is 200 PPI.
Stop caring about absolute resolution and start thinking in PPI.
Personally I think Apple’s PPI target for laptops is too low for 2x scaling.
Apple literally doubled the resolutions of their pre-HiDPI screens for their current screens and then scaled their interface by 2x for the default OS builds, so if their interface is too big for you then it probably has been since Mac OS X came out.
Apple doubled the base display from pre-Retina laptops (1440x900), but they offered a higher-resolution display (1680x1050) and that’s what I used then. I’ve always adjusted the resolution on Retina MacBooks to be the one-notch higher-PPI option.
"poster is probably referring to this: https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2019/11/16in-macboo..."
I don't see the keypad.
But why?? If the current one isn't broken, why would you need to buy a new laptop and go through the hassle of setting it up?
My laptop is from 2013 and is still fine. Parts of my desktop computer are from 2007 -- the case is from 1993, and nothing is more recent than 2015, and everything is running super smooth.
Getting an entire new machine every single year sounds hysterical. But maybe I don't know what I don't know.
Also, and that's where we differ (and kind of my point): setting up a new computer isn't a reward for me, it's a punishment.
But after the withdrawal symptoms receded, that was that. It was over. I can't even remember what it was that I liked about it.
Of course that's just me, and experiences differ. But quitting smoking is its own reward, and I don't mean physically or health-wise. You're free! You don't need to spend time thinking about where the nearest tobacco shop is and if you have enough change to buy more cigarettes to get through the night.
I would argue that if you need to reward yourself every year for quitting, you didn't actually quit. You stopped putting cigarettes in your mouth, but you're still a "smoker".
I was beginning to wonder if they'd ever subside. So it's good to know someone doesn't experience it. Though I have become used to them over the years and, in some situations, are not all bad.
"I started buying a new laptop every year as a reward to myself for quitting smoking. ... The environmental consequences of that system weren't lost on me, even given my very good track-record of re-homing my old computers with people who needed them."
How does that work? That predates the ATX form factor spec released by Intel in 1995.
I had a ginormous PC/AT compatible tower case at that time, very large, very heavy, all steel. IIRC, it had 8 5.25in external drive bays.
In retrospect, the ATX form factor has been rather long-lived, though there are plenty of competing form factors these days.
I suppose with time and care you could modify an old case to take an ATX motherboard, but I'm not sure how well that would work. You'd also likely need to mod the power supply mounting, add cooling and fan mounts, and more.
This is one of those comments I will never understand. Every single time I have tried to use one of those things the only thought that goes through my mind is, "This is the dumbest mouse interface I have ever seen. Why would anyone ever use this thing?"
And then I see comments like this. I don't get it. The ergonomics of those little nubs are awful.
That's the Trackpoint, and it makes up for everything else about it.
Consider dragging and dropping: with a trackpoint you click with your thumb, then use your pointer finger to move the mouse cursor any distance you like, without moving your hand, then release. With a trackpad you press the pad and then move your finger some distance and then... oops, you hit the edge of the pad. Better abort and try again, starting the motion from the opposite pad. Except if I'm on a non-apple trackpad, and I have to click near the top of the pad, it's nearly impossible because the click hinge is near the top. Or maybe I do a finger swap to reset the drag position, and hope that the OS doesn't interpret my moment of two fingers touching as some kind of gesture.
Anyway, it does take some time to get used to, so you won't get it in a few minutes or even a few hours. Try a week. Also make sure you're using a lenovo one (the dell/toshiba ones aren't as good), and very importantly, that you have a fresh cap. Worn out caps make it really frustrating.
IME, using a trackpoint is okay for smaller laptop screens, but going from monitor to monitor kinda sucks.
It's incredible to use, especially in concert with Magnet (a window management app). Three-finger-drag a window to the top of the screen and it's instantly maximized. Selecting text is also a breeze.
I really hope Ubuntu and friends get "inspired" by all the touchpad gestures in macOS.
Sounds like a lot of work compared to any good tiling window manager. Windows should be automatically maximized on opening, unless there are others on the desktop, in which case just hitting a two finger key chord should do it without requiring contorting a wrist or moving an entire forearm away from the home row.
I do most of my window rearranging when I'm switching workflows or connecting an external monotor.
Then I got a MBP at work in 2016 and haven't looked back - but they were far better than most other trackpads for the longest time.
That being said, every laptop I have ever owned has had a trackpoint, so I'm a definitely biased.
I really really do hope framework will add a trackpoint option in the future. I would hate to unlearn this comfortable feature now.
Same here. TEX Shinobi?
0. https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/hz8flk/ergonomic_... 2. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82599.0
For touch typing (like I am doing for this comment), using it is much easier than moving the hands off the keyboard to get to the trackpad. I had to get used to it, but when I did, it's hard to not think of it there.
When I am doing casual reading or I am doing more hurried work, I tend to use the trackpad more. It's feels more suitable for me as a mouse interface when the focus is not typing primarily but more about finding things.
I learned to use a TrackPoint with some motivation that I would be using it a lot. I have instead found a comfortable middle point with using both of them.
And some people think, wow this is a great interface.
Awesome comment!
The #1 reason I use it is to not move my hands when I need to do a pointing operation. You can get very precise with it too, but it takes some getting used to. I'm a klutz with a trackpad now, since I've been using the pointer for so many years. I use a tiling window manager and very few GUI apps (often even using the web in w3m), so mousing isn't as important for me, which is another factor.
I wouldn't play a video game with it, of course, but I'd imagine trackpads suck at those too.
Trackpoints come with The Proper Number of Buttons; 3.
You copy and paste text with a trackpoint.
You scroll with a trackpoint.
You switch workspaces with a trackpoint.
You can also mouse around, but it’s why there’s also a pad, bluetooth and USB.
It’s not lesser, it is more, a lot more.
But once you've got used to it in a couple of days, it's way more efficient than a trackpad for type and pointing activities. I don't have to move my arm compared to when using a trackpad.
This is an interesting video:
IBM introduces "Pointing Stick" (TrackPoint) (1990)
I'll add some nuance: it's entirely possible that a trackpoint is most valuable when your workload is majority typing with some mousing, as opposed to the other way around - so maybe you just have a different workload than most trackpoint users.
Separately - how long did you actually spend trying to use one? Most things have learning curves. You can't unlock most of the potential of a keyboard until you've spent dozens of hours learning how to type, so why shouldn't the same apply to a pointing device?
Trackpoint is like a joystick, very short but sensitive and accurate. The best experience was with a SoftRim cap, which significantly reduced the force required to register.
Even better, using VIM and tiling WM completely eliminates any reason for my hands to leave the resting position on the keyboard. This was simply fantastic, and that's why I still have my X61 around.
Once they're more established and have money in the bank (hopefully that happens), they can think about ramping up manufacturing and actually keeping inventory before it's been spoken for.
Until then, at least the commodity parts (RAM, storage, WiFi card) can be replaced with off-the-shelf parts bought from NewEgg or wherever.
(By the way, Kubuntu installed and ran almost without issues on this 2021 X13 out of the box. Only minor issue was with sleep / suspend but that ended up being a BIOS setting. Apparently there is a "Windows" and a "Linux" sleep state.)
IIRC, Linux uses an actual S3 suspend, where NT has moved to a low-power mode that never actually halts the processor - "always on sleep" or something?
I've used the warranty and it's fantastic.
As a security and privacy researcher I care more about being able to trust the computer when it is powered on and in use. That means user controllable firmware, and the Librem 14 has no equal in this regard.
It is a real shame I have to choose. I hope these companies will shamelessly trade ideas or merge.
A Framework laptop style hardware with a neutered ME and Heads firmware would not only take my money, but become my top recommendation for all of the companies I provide security advice for.
For the moment, my Dell XPS 13 laptop from 2015 is still going strong, and I'd hate to ditch a brand/model that's been working reliably for me for six years for new-shiny thing from a company that might go under in a year.
For a small thickness and weight penalty, the T series are much easier to repair, upgrade, and maintain. My T450s (bought new in 2015) and T480 (bought new last year) both have an easy keyboard swap and Intel graphics (not a proprietary Nvidia GPU). Cory implies that Thinkpads still need a proprietary dock, but any USB-C-enabled Thinkpad (i.e. any Thinkpad made in the past few years) can use any cheap USB-C dock out there.
Nearly every component on the T series is as easy to upgrade or replace as the Framework claims to be. I've swapped my RAM, storage, display panel, and battery. The T480 and older external battery are even more serviceable than the Framework's: just pull 2 tabs and it slides out.
Don't touch a Thinkpad unless it's a T series. But a T series ThinkPads will also not be any sleek form factor that most people would want either.
Yes! This is one of the main reasons that I will stick with Thinkpads. there are times that I have a mouse plugged in, but still use the track point since I then don't have to move my hand. I hope that they will add a track point to their laptop.
[1] https://twitter.com/burntsushi5/status/1433823144649842694
When I see a fat laptop with ports. I am happy.
The framework wins for me because of repairability. But I know countless people will love the customizability of the ports.
I do have a USB-A wired mouse, but I only use that when I'm first-person gaming (not often, maybe 3-4 times a month). But for that I just have the A-to-C adapter permanently attached to the mouse, so it's not like I need to go find an adapter when I want to plug the mouse in.
Only other thing is HDMI, but I keep one of those white Apple dongles I got with a work laptop in the drawer under my TV (I probably pull it out once every 6 months or so). I don't use an external monitor for the most part, but for that I have another dongle permanently attached to the cable plugged into the monitor, so, again, that's not an inconvenience.
When I'm traveling, it's really nice that I only have to bring a single charger that charges both my laptop and phone. I'll usually also bring a Chromecast with me so I don't have to deal with cables at all if I want to watch something on a hotel/Airbnb TV. But that's pretty much all I need.
I don't think I'm "out of touch", though I certainly allow for the truth that other people have different needs than I do.
Regarding ports on the Framework: is there really no ethernet option? And no full side SD card, just micro?
This has convinced me I need to invest time into KDE as well to help bring forward the fingerprint sensor into the UI.
Here is the proposal for the fingerprint UI manager:
https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-desktop/-/merge_request...
I believe but haven’t confirmed (and won’t) that Gnome may be ahead of the game here.
CPU isn't up-gradable without switching out the entire mainboard, which I'm fine with, once I get an AMD version that is :)
btw certain distro devs were provided with Framework laptops a while back
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_graphics_...
I've always heard the opposite, that AMD's linux support is amazing and that it's windows drivers are lacking. Especially in the GPU department where it struggles with minecraft.
No, you don't. You see people complaining about NVIDIA's linux support.
Wouldn't it be nice if there just 'CPUs', and you could pick whatever was appropriate for your desktop or laptop. Sure some would maybe only make sense in one package, but there must be some considerable overlap. I use my desktop for work because it has upgradeable RAM and I needed to do that, not because it has a beefier CPU than is available in a laptop.
It's still better though, a lot of it is standardised stuff - you don't need Framework to exist to be able still to replace your M2 SSD, WiFi, DDR4 RAM.
Once they offer an ISO keyboard layout, you would expect demand to be even higher.
My fear is that when it becomes popular enough, one of the BigTech's may just make an offer too good to refuse, and just buy and bury the company.
I'm really yearning for a modern laptop with a keyboard layout that doesn't seem to exist anymore in modern keyboards, something like this [1], where there is a set of 6 nav keys at the upper right corner and a set of full size arrow keys at the lower right corner. If the Framework laptop has an option for a customized keyboard with that layout, I'll literally instantly buy it without even considering other specs.
1: https://koboguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/1pDN_eHnop3...
A 2019 Carbon X1 (14") weighs 2.4lbs and the laptop they're drooling over starts at 2.8lbs.
It's a laptop for enthusiasts offering flexibility and repairability and future-proofing, and I think that overlaps with people who want to swap out GPUs and not rely solely on the CPU-integrated one.
Perhaps they are waiting for USB-C pass-through GPU enclosures to become a thing.
Perhaps they will come out with an eGPU enclosure that can just be plugged into an existing swappable expansion bay, and won't need any special design changes? One can hope.
Honestly, this is one of the best new ideas I've seen in a long time!
P.S. Imagine ten years from now - we may be doing the same thing with phones! Oh yeah, I really hope this idea takes off!
Is this possibly because of charging? It seems like such an easy and obvious thing to do.
I think I might want a beige laptop, something with the fine lines of The Framework and the raw aesthetic appeal of Lappy 486.
That's funny I remember laptops from the 2000s with those swappable cards with different ports.
One I distinctly remember because it was clever way to keep the card ~3mm thin were the Ethernet cards, where the Ethernet port was hidden inside and you'd press it to make it pop, similar to handleless kitchen cabinets.
I found a picture of those on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card The framework expansion port seems to be a 2021 version of this, although I don't know how standardized these new ones are.
EDIT: From the framework's configuration page:
> > Will you be adding additional Expansion Card types?
> Yes! We'll be adding new Expansion Cards over time, and we're also opening up the design to enable third parties and community members to create their own versions. We'll be making these available in the Framework Marketplace
That's awesome, then in theory Ethernet expansion card could exist (and use similar design to the PC cards above, where the Ethernet port can be retractable)
So I just wanted to pushback on the notion that Lenovo today is not viable with Linux Mint. I've never had a problem with the installer. I keep up with the upgrades and with major upgrades I install from Live ISO on USB each time and restore my important files from backup.
I upgraded all 3 laptops with more or better ram, wifi, and ssds. And currently ordering a Traditional Chinese keyboard for the L5P for the wifey. But I took AMD for the legions.
Thank you for mentioning this alternative! Just found him on Etsy. I have always preferred the old-style concave nibs for TrackPoints over the new convex ones. This will be a serious improvement for my Thinkpad.
I still use one of those on my external Thinkpad keyboard.
Tip: search "<model name> psref" to quickly get to a PDF with specifications.
I don't need a touchpad though. Actually, one of the best laptops I've owned was one without a touchpad [1].
Those are good points. I'm thinking there could be patents involved too.
> I don't need a touchpad though. Actually, one of the best laptops I've owned was one without a touchpad [1].
That's true! I don't really use the touchpad on my X230, even though it's there.
Forget the cost, but the waste!
> The environmental consequences of that system weren't lost on me, even given my very good track-record of re-homing my old computers with people who needed them.
> The environmental consequences of that system weren't lost on me, even given my very good track-record of re-homing my old computers with people who needed them.
Not really that uncommon especially with a MacBook Pro where a new one is released...every year.
How much sense it makes, that's another story.
If you buy a $2000 Mac and use it for as long as reasonably, it's going to depreciate by several hundred dollars (let's say, roughly $300) a year. At a certain point it's worth nearly zero, and you must buy a new laptop. After 6-7 years your total outlay is $2000.
Alternatively, every year or two you can sell the old one for a few hundred dollars less than the new model, and buy the new model. You always have a new laptop. And your total outlay is still only about $2000. Plus you are covered by free AppleCare every time you buy the new one.
Plenty of people do this with mobile phones and automobiles and other things as well.
Please note that I am not advocating it. I was still using my 2015 laptop until very recently. But economically it is not necessarily insane.
(Assuming you are selling the old laptops, that is. It's not clear to me that the author is doing that. He says he's donating/rehoming them. Not sure if that includes selling)
Though, with Macs, it's trivial - their migration tool is peerless. (As one would certainly expect and demand: since they control the whole software/hardware stack)
And they last for years and years, and I doubt the cost:performance:longevity ratios can be beat.
After the fourth or so time of doing this, and after getting higher-paying jobs, I ended up biting the bullet for a more expensive computer, and it lasted me five years, and I only replaced it because I wanted more RAM.
Point is, if you're lower-income, it's fairly easy to get stuck in the "one laptop a year" trend, because, while probably a better deal in the long term, it's really hard for lower-income to justify a multi-thousand dollar expense. I'm a proper tech bro now so buying a good computer isn't the worst thing in the world for me, but that wasn't always the case.
I think there's more junk at the low end to avoid, but it's not as if the high end doesn't have a lot of junk to avoid. Either way, you have to do careful shopping.
It's like just my opinion, but a lot of higher end laptop spending seems to be on increasing the screen's DPI, which is then run with scaling, at the cost of more CPU, more RAM, more GPU, and more software BS. Buying a cheaper laptop with fewer pixels that just runs 1:1 saves all that extra computation and BS, and maybe looks a bit less nice. Sometimes glossy screens are reserved for the high cost laptops, which is like wait, I want a matte screen, so I have to save money to get one, great!
For example, I used to have an Asus computer whose plastic surrounding the screen decided to start coming detached from the monitor flap. This made the laptop substantially more fragile and annoying to use, and after a certain point I tried to remedy this with gorilla glue and it led to this ugly mess on the bottom left corner. The laptop still "worked" in the sense that still did computation, but it was crappier. Then the 7 key broke off the keyboard, I was unable to put it back on, so I just decided I didn't need the 7 key, since I didn't type 7 that often, and when I did I could still hit the little switch. Again, the laptop still "worked" in the sense that it still did computation, but it was crappier. A bunch of other stuff ended up happening (e.g. the LED for the backlight started to go out and become this flickery mess, the connector to the battery didn't always seem to make contact, etc).
Stuff like that starts to add up, and "experience" is substantially more difficult to quantify. I bought an expensive Macbook, and I never had any issues outside of the inevitable "moores law" depreciation.
I hope that keeps going. I used a macbook for work for almost 8 years, and they did OK, but I had one that decided not to take external power and the hard drive wasn't removable, thankfully I noticed it wasn't charging while it was near full so I could pull a backup to a spare work hand. And then there was the year where iTunes would have a 25% chance of spewing high volume digital noise at me instead of playing music. I guess that was a software problem because it went away with the next major OS X release, but no useful forum contents. I think there was something else bothersome too, but not sure anymore.
I got a business class laptop in 2007 for probably 3 times as much. That laptop lasted me until last month. I maxed out the RAM and replaced the HD with an SSD about 7 years ago, but it was ultimately the now-anemic CPU and graphics that got me to buy a replacement. I'd have replaced it last fall but laptop stocks were too low.
It's a little less visible for laptops than for, say, kitchen appliances, but even there my thinkpad x220 was bought and upgraded for €400 in 2015, and it did its job well untill half way this year.
Either way, you'll pay about as much for a used ThinkPad in good condition with good specs as you would for a new HP Stream or other cheaptop.
Tangential, but a bit of a lifehack I figured out awhile ago is that corporations dump off old servers on eBay for basically nothing, and most servers allow you to install a regular desktop graphics card in there. Servers usually have a lot of CPUs and a lot of RAM, so 9 years ago when a broke me needed enough power to do cool stuff on the computer, I would go buy a used server on eBay, and it was good enough for video processing and editing and gaming and distributed computing experiments...as long as I remembered to turn it off when I wasn't using it. Whenever I would accidentally leave it on for a few days, I would end up increasing my power bill by ~$40, a lot of money when you don't have much.
Still, it's a trick I still use occasionally, even now that I make decent money. I semi-recently bought a 48 core, 128gb RAM server for around $400, which I use for any big computing experiments. Could I just spin up an AWS box with these specs? Probably, but I think there is value in being able to have the hardware locally.
Four cores and 12gb of RAM would make a pretty solid build server, with enough room left for a Minecraft and video streaming server to boot! Sounds like a pretty awesome find.
> That was my homework: go away and think of an immediate reason not to smoke. When I came back, I had my answer ready: “I spend two laptops per year on smokes. That money goes directly to the dirtiest companies on Earth, the literal inventors of the science-denial playbook that is responsible for our inaction on climate change. Those companies’ sole mission is to murder me and all my friends. I’m going to quit smoking and I’m going to buy a laptop this year and every year hereafter, and I’ll still be up one laptop per year.”
There is a severe ecological impact to the wider environment that comes from electronics, let's not kid ourselves. That doesn't mean buying electronics makes you like, a terrible person, but if you're sitting around prostheyzing on blogs like Doctorow about how these companies are killing you, it's a bit funny to essentially go from a thing that kills people you know in the first world to one that only kills people in the third world you never cared for. Modern comforts like cutting edge electronics have extreme externalities. Like, okay, let me just throw the "murders people I care about" problem over the fence, where it will surely not be an issue for all those people halfway across the planet from me (that I coincidentally do not care or think about.)
In general I'm not trying to be too hard. It's not like anyone else deals with this level of cognitive dissonance much better, and I say that as someone who mostly quit cold turkey over a year ago...
I feel like you're not really representing his argument on why he quit fairly. He does talk about the effects of tobacco on the developing world for one and also his overall reason seems to be more relating to the wider idea of tobacco companies being pioneers in the misinformation industry.
"With all the money you've spent on cigarettes in your lifetime, you could have bought a Ferrari."
"Do you smoke?"
"No."
"Then where's your Ferrari?"
It's a good question. Most of us have the financial capability to be extremely extravagant with a few select areas of our life, but instead we average everything down to boring mediocrity.
What a stupid comment. He saved the money and spent it on what he wanted. The hell?
He should save the money and you should call your grandmother.
Otherwise it's always Sure, I'll quit - tomorrow
Willpower is a muscle. It fatigues. So simply willing your way out of an addiction is not effective for many people.
The cigarettes are probably better for Nature since you'll live a shorter life.
He traded smoking for buying a new laptop every year. Now that it's been years, I guess he could quit and not buy a new laptop. But also people do more wasteful things. I do understand though, I drive laptops into the ground over many years but still 4-5 years per laptop
I worked with a guy who practiced this with all his personal hardware.
I replace my phone and laptop and iPad every year. I know people who replace their car and wardrobe and luggage every year, too.
In laptops and mobile devices in general, annual updates make a lot of sense as power efficiency is still regularly increasing. The M1 Air, is, for example, a fucking marvel. It's been out for way less than a year. I have an M1 Air, and will upgrade it again in less than a year when the Mx (where x > 1) Macbook Pro comes out.
They can just sell the laptop and someone else will use it. For example, I almost never buy new laptops, as perfect Linux support generally lags behind.
I think the idea could be expanded upon. Dongles that extend beyond the chassis such that they protrude a bit but make a flush contact with the laptop chassis. This would let you basically turn a typical USB dock into a permanent extension. Perhaps instead of having an two expansion ports on each side, each side of the computer including the front & back would have one larger port. I don't think having two USB C ports does anything to increase overall bandwidth available since it's probably all shared anyway.
Also once Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4 are available it should make creating standardized expansion adapters a lot easier since you won't have to worry about an adapter needing Thunderbolt on an AMD system.
This was my thought as well, but they're planning on doing more interfaces than what they're listing now, so it may be they went for universibility with the size.
Also USB-A is going to slowly die off anyways, so I doubt it's good to build the dongle standard to two USB-As.
[1] https://community.frame.work/c/expansion-cards/developer-pro...
[2] https://community.frame.work/t/what-new-expansion-card-types...
[3] https://community.frame.work/t/youtuber-elevated-systems-mak...
In what way do they limit the USB-C they pass through?
GP means that if you use one other than the USB-C pass-through module, it's (trivially) a proper subset of the USB-C functionality that you started out with.
I don't really see the issue: the alternative is that you do that in a dongle more external to the laptop anyway?
After seeing the framework, I'm more than a little annoyed that I fell for this. They proved you can have a slim, clean laptop that's somewhat modular, and more impressively, with something like 1% of Apple's budget to do it. Had I known about it, I probably wouldn't have paid an arm and a leg for a maxed-out Macbook Pro a year ago. MacOS is nice, probably my favorite consumer operating system currently available, but Apple's walled garden approach is beyond annoying.
Honestly, I'd rage if I had to throw it out together with the perfectly good CPU, GPU/VRAM and maybe half the RAM and pay for a used replacement board with all of those integrated.
Or what, buy a rework station and risk damaging them or having them work improperly due to shit soldering skills?
I guess I could learn to fix the board itself. But that's pretty hard, there are no schematics, no components for most laptops, failures are not evident and one component can lead to a cascade of failures across the board. A used board was $100. Now they're ~$500 because there's a CPU and GPU there.
My next computer will be a desktop in a handcrafted case (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components).
I will still need a laptop away from home and/or as a portable display, that'll be one of my old 17 inchers or the cheapest one I can get (Haswell gen lol).
This should totally be a thing. I wish it was a thing. It doesn't even have to provide hours of runtime, just needs to be enough to handle the occasional stupid California brownout.
The battery will fit in an empty PSU case, I just need some custom cables and connectors for the passthrough, my biggest problem is charging and switchover. Looks like I will need a custom board for that. I thought it'd be easier heh
People care about Right To Repair; that's why the FTC has been pressured into action recently on the matter (not that I entertain any hope that that bunch of bought-and-paid-for bureaucrats will actually achieve anything.) Framework has blown a vast hole through the false arguments offered in opposition. One must simply care. That's all it takes. Every manufacturer that has opposed RTR has the means and talent to do at least as well has Framework has done, and probably better. They just don't care.
Thankfully the vestigial remains of our free market are sufficient to run the experiment.
And that's why "free markets" will never solve this. (And that's whether the "free" in free markets means freedom from regulations, or freedom for people to participate in the market).
IMHO this is why the European system of strong regulatory bodies tends to work better than the US system of "wait for a customer to experience damages, then recoup through the courts, and then the companies learn their lesson."
* analysts consider whether the cost > profit, if not then continue doing the same thing as before.
There's already no "standard" laptop design, just a set of desirable properties people want. And there's already no push to converge; there are many laptop vendors. There's plenty of room for a new vendor with different priorities (like modularity); there's more room for such a vendor than there is for one more undifferentiated vendor.
A competitive market isn't a marry-go-round where every idea gets its turn under the sun for all eternity. It's an arena where some rise and many perish. In the '90s and '00s, many ideas fell through, many companies collapsed, and many technologies become outmoded. What has come out of that is the sealed computer of today.
I have. I note that large numbers of people build PCs from components and that this market is large enough to be a primary concern for a constellation of manufacturers and has been for decades. You can buy an IC with 1200 contacts and install it yourself on the kitchen table. There is no other segment of the microelectronics world were this level of commoditization exists and yet it has stood the test of time. Transferring this behavior to mobile machines seems like an inevitable and long overdue step to me.
"Historically laptops were never as repairable as desktops."
History is a poor yardstick here. A number of forces have emerged that change the landscape. Among these are amazing design tools that enable a startup to go from zero to a complete, shipping modular design in 18 months (establishing a defacto standard, btw), tooling that delivers rapid fabrication in small volume, standardized, high performance serial busses that enable simple yet powerful architectures, robust solid state storage devices and the integration of some difficult components into CPUs. It used to require the resources of major manufacturers and their proprietary knowledge and capabilities to pull off marketable mobile designs. That era has passed and the commodity era is here.
"The adhesive-sealed laptop that you resent"
I do not resent monolithic products. I own several. I will buy more. I resent the lack of a choice. I expect that modular mobile machines will take their place among the equipment I acquire, and that these will become the major focus of my concern, whereas the monoliths will be relegated to ancillary tasks.
"What has come out of that is the sealed computer."
And they won't go away. The question is how much room is there for modular systems. I believe there is a lot. I imagine a Newegg filled with commodity mix and match mobile components from a vast number of vendors.
Time will tell.
That just leaves you with entrenched companies doing the bare minimum for compliance, and lobbying for loopholes to protect their own market positions.
However, people do keep in mind this still may not result in better third-party repairability - it may be things like easier reclaiming of components off of boards by the manufacturer to put into refurbished swap-out units.
Maybe they think they don't until one piece of their MBP fails and they have to pay Apple to replace 90% of their laptop.
Framework means you can custom-build it, just like your desktop. Reparability aside, that alone is a milestone.
I also don't really care to replace individual components in my systems, but being able to upgrade laptop hardware without throwing away the chasis and storage seems pretty nice to me.
If it were a big energy hog (it's not), then it may make sense to put it out to pasture and scavenge the parts for others.
The exception is my keyboard, is like my toothbrush, if toothbrushes could last for two decades. That I will keep and move to the new computer, as keyboard technology is not advancing.
For laptops, I see even less utility for upgrades than for a desktop, but perhaps that's just me.
You can move your keyboard to a new computer because you are able to detach it without melting half the device with a heat gun. With laptops it's not that easy. When the MacBook keyboards broke all the time a few years ago, a keyboard replacement meant also replacing the speakers, battery and touchpad. Not for any technical reason, but because Apple doesn't like screws. The MS Surface Pro and Surface Laptop couldn't be repaired by anyone, not even MS themselves - if a single $20-30 part fails you have to spend $1000 again. Doesn't sound like a great deal if you ask me.
You might not need or want upgrades and maybe you're lucky and nothing ever breaks. But having the choice only comes with upsides.
I mean, I've met people that only wear underwear once or twice before throwing it away, too, but I wouldn't say that's normal. People would generally rather replace a drive, processor, ram, or screen than spend 10x as much on an entirely new system. They don't because the manufacturers make that option difficult or impossible.
People didn't love VCR/TV combos, and people don't love this. Manufacturers love this.
And it's also about replacing broken components without having to ditch the whole laptop.
I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry!
As soon as Framework releases an AMD model I'm on board.
It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices.
Also, anyone who says “it’s felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options” is an outlier by definition.
It makes sense from a business sense to have fewer models with small changes between them. You could have tech workers that assemble every custom order. That costs a lot more than a simplified inventory of a few different models that are already pre-assembled, with no hardware customization.
Please refrain from insults, or at least make an effort to justify this if you think it’s valid.
> The general populous/average consumer prefers simplified options. They aren't tech savvy as many here are.
Isn’t that exactly my point? The industry serves the general consumer. The framework laptop serves a niche.
What they want is to know they are getting a good deal and that they aren't buying a lemon, something that cannot meet their needs.
What Apple did is decide they should really distinguish on classes of identifiable hardware differences, eg. a better larger screen for a "pro" class, have good/better/best distinctions within that, and customization for those who are picky.
I assume the intersection between people who have particular hardware requirements and those who do not understand their hardware requirements is extremely small these days. Apple doesn't sell computers which really fall short these days, so I'm able to focus the conversation on usage, user-impacting hardware features, and long-term budgeting (e.g. planning even as far as the replacement for the machine they are buying)
They proved that taking away choices is still better than the shitshow their competitors are running.
Apple proved that a few simple product names are less confusing than literally 6 different "brands" of laptops from a single company. That doesn't mean people don't want choices though, they just don't want to feel like they're getting trolled by badly designed websites throwing all the possible laptop configurations in their face. Even if you know what the specs mean it still feels like a major waste of time to try and compare the 20 devices on the screen. I want to configure every detail of my laptop, not 2 details on one of 200 laptops.
Apple also proved that making devices difficult to upgrade, maintain and repair is harmful for everything and everyone other than Apple.
Almost nobody wants that, but the good news is that enough people do that framework exists.
I would understand it if a manufacturer offered some ultra high-end model with custom storage like in the PS5. But if the Framework laptop can have swappable RAM and SSDs with almost the same thickness as a (insufficiently cooled) Macbook it's obvious why that stuff is soldered in.
Can you actually find a quote for this? I’m quite skeptical that any such lie has been told.
If I understood it correctly, you can buy replacement parts only from Framework. They will have supply issues, and customers will be unhappy.
I guess if the laptops don't ever break, or if the customers' need for replacement parts is more theoretical than real, it could work out. Or they somehow manage to get over the small, niche manufacturer hump and become a Lenovo with massive scale. I doubt that's gonna happen.
The problem would come in if a Framework-specific part breaks, but at least those generally seem to be pretty simple (apart from the motherboard, at least).
They've also open sourced the modular components so people can develop their own third party compatible parts.
RAM, wireless, and storage aren't chained to Framework, and are effectively the only parts you can reasonably buy for any existing laptop in the current day.
I would not be surprised if battery and screen replacements start popping up, but that's just a guess not something I'd bet on.
That Framework will be the only suppliers of parts that other laptops don't even attempt to make replaceable is not a worrying situation, it's a hopeful one.
I upgraded my monitor and changed 2 keyboards(I am hard on them) with a laptop if you fuck your keyboard you probably have to use an external one or hope that replacing your laptop keyboard is cheap enough and you can find a spare.
Users care!
A desktop you built using standardized components you sourced from a competitive market with a plethora of alternatives specifically designed for easy assembly. Should any component fail you can obtain a replacement and perform the repair yourself. Doubtless these affordances are a part of why you chose to assemble you're machine yourself.
You do indeed care. The inability to extrapolate this to laptop machines seems obtuse.
I don't doubt that a huge market of interchangeable parts made this easier. But it's important to separate the ends from the means here, when it comes to customer concerns. The customers that want customizability and upgradability are a vanishingly small slice of customers. (Just as are the ones who want to run Linux, and that small slice does include me.)
Can you not imagine the vast market of people that might want a laptop not loaded with OEM crap ware? Because that is exactly what could emerge if Framework manages to establish a market of commodity mobile components.
I went the basket route because it required less research for me, because I just wanted to get to my end result as quickly as possible.
Grander goals about establishing ecosystems that serve other eventual end goals is not the way that most money is spent. (Though I do spend my money that way in other areas, such as with climate action, the PC market does not matter that much to me.)
You're a potential customer of this product, your cognitive dissonance on the matter notwithstanding.
My last desktop build is still going strong nine years later. Swapped out a broken motherboard, upgraded to OCed DDR3, and stuck in a PCIe card for NVMe: good as new.
I care. I often swap out parts. My family and friends care, because I help them swap out parts when needed, especially during critical failures when they need it working ASAP and can't risk some corporation formatting the hard drive for no reason.
And my coworkers care because they're fellow techies and do this stuff, too.
Reminder that Apple isn't the problem. Their customers are. I know movie quotes are seriously lowbrow for this audience, but somewhat relevant here, and correct:
"That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy."
Not to Godwin the thread, but this absurd apologia for anti-freedom products from the standpoint of convenience and apathy reminds me of the old quip about Hitler making the trains run on time.
I hope a decade from now you love the soul-crushing Snow Crash-esque dystopia your choices will have created, because you will have absolutely no moral authority to complain about it.
If my laptop was a Framework laptop, I'd just need to buy a pretty inexpensive new port and swap it out. It's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.
You’d never see Dr. Ian Cutress of AnandTech or Steve from GamersNexus pulling this shit.
Of course he makes much more money than both of them combined. Make no mistake that he is an entertainer and a businessman.
LTT also really always had the proper balance. Sponsored reviews are marked, sponsored segments are marked, and they are not holding back on negative reviews for long term channel sponsors. They totally ripped into Intel again and again for the failure to compete with AMD, and at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware upgrades for team members in a sponsored mini-series. Totally fair.
Of course Intel did a big marketing push right as their products were the least competitive, and I'm sure LMG was paid large. Putting that kind of stunt in the same league as GN reviewing a product from a company that previously sponsored them (which is, of course, all that LTT does) is simply ridiculous.
"Balance" is such a weasel word in this context. They're playing both sides, plain and simple.
AnandTech quit doing SSD endurance testing as soon as vendors started selling trash TLC and QLC. Is that a coincidence? Can you really trust them?
There's a point where you need to put some trust in reviewers because the industry is set up to make them dependent on the manufacturers. However, there's a huge difference between traditional reviewers where employees are doing reviews and new age reviewers where influencers are doing the reviews.
People like Linus and Steve have way more incentive to put their own integrity over short term interests like pleasing a manufacturer, so it's very unlikely you'll ever see them shilling for anyone. Getting caught doing that once would ruin their brand (and credibility) because they are their brand.
In other words, there are no scape goats in the influencer space so they have way more incentive to be completely honest and transparent.
I remember when Tom's Hardware was new and I think the current generation of influencers / reviewers are going to obliterate the traditional media companies that have turned into affiliate marketing shills.
In the videos Linus does breaking down LMG's revenue, about a third of it comes from a tiny fraction of their audience - merch and direct subscriptions. I'm sure it's a similar chunk if not more for GN through modmats, mousepads, and Patreon.
Even if they sold out their integrity and still got millions of views, it's that "hardcore" audience they can't really get back. In an enthusiast space where a large chunk of the audience are professionals with disposable income, it's a lot to lose.
I haven't seen anything from Linus or Steve to suggest that's the only reason they care so much about their integrity, they both seem to genuinely care, but y'know parasocial relationships etc.
what they want is:
To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory.
If you are "price insensitive" they will allow you to get a better cpu or more memory for a significant upcharge.
next year, they want:
To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory.
They do not want you upgrading the cpu or memory yourself
They do not want you to add next-year's cpu yourself next year.
1/ A lot of them (most?) had 8Go of RAM. 16Go is rare and 32Go even more. What year is it?!
2/ Most have soldiered RAM without an additional slot.
Just being able to use my own NVMe disk in something like a Framework translates into savings for me because I don't need a huge disk in my laptop and can reuse one that's too small for my server or desktop.
"Imagine being an engineer at a company at Apple, and it being your job to design the mechanism that makes it so that machine cannot start up unless the chassis is fully sealed. Apple spent actual fucking money making sure that product would not work unless it is in the exact chassis they shipped it in."
That goes beyond not caring.
Realistically, if your threat model is government secret services, and you're using unmodified consumer grade electronics, then you're in 'danger' no matter what. You can't effectively mitigate a threat at the state level using resources produced under the watchful eye of the same state. All they have to do is ask the producer to swap out the device they gave you with a device that comes compromised out of the box. And that's assuming the tech is perfect. Most likely they just hire someone to defeat the countermeasures. However many resources Apple has, I assure you even the most janky state has more.
Commenter above was saying though that the device's anti-tamper tech would save you from state level attacks. I'm just getting at the fact that that's not going to work, since if a proverbial 'they' want to take you out, there's other ways to do so you can't overcome. Just a few examples that came to me about how easy it is to foil anti-tampering measures.
> It seems obvious to me that if you're being targeted, tailed and tracked and probed, you've already lost.
Depends on which government agency watchlist you are. If you are some sort of Islamist terrorist, the tools that are open to the government are far more capable than if you are some sort of low level drug dealer.
Security isn't a product.
Honestly, I would not be surprised if Apple 'invented' the idea of 'integrated dongles' before their next keynote so they could sell you a $95 usb 2.0 port.
While there are questionable practices by Apple and many other machine producers, what you can't argue against is that in limiting the hardware that MacOS has to work with, they're able to deliver a level of stability and user experience that you don't get with Linux.
Sure, it would be great if we could replace the batteries, if we could upgrade the memory, and easily fix broken parts, but that isn't the company's ethos. The company produces devices that are plug and play, high grade consumer electronics. Nobody forces us to buy these products.
Anyway, that being said, the framework machines look super interesting and if they were UK available, I'd probably get one for a non-critical Linux-based workstation.
As if choosing a $1k+ computer to use for years was equivalent to choosing the flavor of ice cream scoops.
The "voting with your wallet" argument doesn't work when there's several variables in play, and the optimal configurations don't exist on the market. Like e.g. I'd like to buy a computer that's just like Macbook, except with repairable/swappable/upgradeable components. Or a phone that's just like iPhone, except with replaceable battery, a headphone jack, and repairable home button. But I can't have them - even if I'm ready to pay a bit extra, and if I'd welcome a thicker device. These options literally don't exist. Nothing similar to them exists. Particularly on the repairability front, every vendor is choosing to just not offer it.
1) How do we enforce that at smaller scales?
2) How would we prevent our regulation from squashing innovative solutions to problems, or enhancing safety in critical applications?
That's the thing, making something plug and play and mostly "driver-free" would be very hard to almost impossible. Framework laptops look amazing but they will require at least a bit more maintenance and knowledge, and that is fine too.
I am against billboards in space but I would make an exception for this quote.
I agree that Apple shouldn't have to support random mods / hardware components / etc and that their selling point is "it just works".
But then again, they don't have to be dicks about it. If they're able to detect that the hardware has somehow been modified, maybe just show some message along the lines of "you've modified the hardware, we're not supporting this anymore, you're on your own" instead of bricking it.
I'm willing to bet real money that they did.
No, I don't want slim and tiny, I want to be able to replace and upgrade parts. I want a battery I can swap out or RAM I can replace.
The problem is that being able to swap parts extends service life of machines. Can't have that when they want you to just buy a new one ever 3 years.
Edit: Also the 16:10 aspect ratio :(
[1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Install-Guide/macos-limi...
Once we hit five pounds and I had a bag that stopped caring about smaller laptops? Well that was about the time that desktops died and I could have used a workstation class laptop with some more flexibility.
But I opted for simple and put my energy somewhere else instead. Seems a lot of people did.
Strictly speaking, the throw of the keyboard when in use is not limited by the dimensions of the laptop when it's not in use. There is air above and sometimes below that the keys can occupy. Having the keys raise up when opening the lid might be mechanically impractical, but having the lid depress all of the keys is a matter of ignoring key presses until the lid is opened past an angle where it stops touching the top row of keys.
Based on the shape of the smudges on my screen I'm pretty sure that already happens to an extent.
I think my overall point still stands. I still find it irritating that, until very recently, the only way to get a nice, slim laptop was to accept that everything is hard-wired in. Framework proved that that's not correct.
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Go+Teardow...
I.e. The last person who can be trusted to report on Apple’s motivations.
It’s an absurd explanation. Some obvious other factors are:
1. The idea that a modular chassis is less robust over time. Not that it can’t be made, but that if you make millions of them, vastly more of them will have problems because of all the connectors etc.
We don’t have any data on the framework. Perhaps they’ll prove this to be a misplaced fear, but it’s also possible that framework laptops in aggregate will need more repairs because of the extra complexity.
2. Limited hardware profiles are easier to support with software. If users can create limitless combinations, it becomes much harder to test. This isn’t an issue for the typical Linux user who can do their own homework and fix their own issues, but it’s a deal breaker for someone who just wants to buy a computer and get work done.
In short, it was not a lie that you get smaller, lighter, and better laptops with integration. You do, in fact, get all of those things.
Genuine question, I know very little about electrical components.
Do you have a reference for why it can’t be put on a removable module?
there is an inherent tradeoff between size, battery life, and modularity. if you can make a modular laptop with good specs and battery life, a competitor will always be able to offer the same thing in a smaller chassis or with a bigger battery.
However this is only because manufacturers don't make them. If Apple asked Micron or Samsung for them, I'm sure it would happen.
A better argument for non-replaceable RAM can be found in the Apple Silicon chips. Building the memory into the SoC provides very tangible performance and efficiency benefits.
And I don't think they ever will be. From the little bit that I've read, the higher voltage that SODIMMs have to use has to do with noise in transmission. LPDDR4s have been connection through the direct solder, so are able to use lower voltages.
Scroll down to the battery section
> Only 61 percent the battery life of a similarly configured XPS 13
And the XPS has an i7-1065G7 [1] vs the Framework with an i7-1185G7 [2]. So the Framework has a better screen and a better CPU. I'm not sure I agree with running that benchmark without other data alongside it like a score or the average clock rate.
For example, I put a 2nd battery in a ThinkPad once and it had the effect of locking the CPU clock to <1GHz. The battery was predicted to last much longer than normal, but it was useless as a computer.
1. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/196597/...
2. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/208664/...
The only laptop for which that seems to be true is the MacBook, but no x86 laptop will come close to that. From what I've seen the Framework has a mostly uninteresting battery life, outperforming some likely competitors (like Dell's XPS 13 and MS's Surface Laptop) and outperformed by others (like HP's ProBook x360 and ASUS's Zenbook 13).
Under the final section:
>>The ugly
Only 61 percent the battery life of a similarly configured XPS 13> In our battery test, which sets the laptop’s screen brightness to 150 nits and tasks it with endlessly browsing the web via Wi-Fi, the Framework lasted 10 hours and 17 minutes. That’s better than the Dell XPS 13 (7:59)
https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/framework-laptop-review-th...
Maybe the XPS 13 configuration was different? Or maybe the tests were different in nature? Ars used PCMark 10, which is a standard benchmark that Dell could have specifically optimized for.
The Ars review does have this to say later on:
> The Framework also manages surprisingly high battery life under Ubuntu—in our semi-scientific video playback test, Framework runs neck and neck with the outstanding Acer Swift 3 at just over five hours, with everything else (including the XPS 13, which in this case is hampered by a 4k touchscreen display) trailing well behind.
It's a compromise in the short term maybe, but long term it's so much nicer.
You're supposed to replace the macbook by then.
https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85...
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Disp...
Apple nailed that during the same generation they introduced the unreplaceable battery. Better density, less packaging, and improved power management virtually doubled the run time on that laptop versus the previous. That was a huge deal at the time.
Has everyone else caught up?
What’s the walled garden on macOS? You can run anything you want on the Mac.
This is why we don't have secure computing in 2021. Users don't like the usability problems that come with security.
at the same time, I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. you can upgrade both DIMMs, which is cool, but not exactly unheard of these days (I guess it's getting there in an ultraportable?). you're still stuck with DDR4, which is almost EOL, and the max capacity it entails. it's neat that you can customize your IO options, but how many people are going to do that more than once? being constrained by the chipset, it's not like you're going to be able to "upgrade" your IO in the future.
the most likely parts of a laptop to fail are the SSD and the battery, both of which are fairly easy to replace on almost all laptops. past that, you aren't really gaining that much when you're locked into whatever CPU/chipset was current when you bought the laptop.
Framework is also proactively making documentation, schematics, etc etc available for repair shops.
Which newer laptops? Other than Macs and crappy $199 Walmart grade tablet-chromebook thingamajigs, I don't know any mainstream PC laptop that does that (thankfully).
Even super light and super slim laptops still have replaceable storage. Even niche Pocket Computers like the GPD and Valve Steam Deck still have replaceable SSDs.
So I don't buy your statement.
The truth is, unlike with RAM, it's still cheaper for the other laptop manufacturers to have a single motherboard SKU which they can later plug whatever cheap COTS SSDs they can get from various sources rather than waste effort tayloring a motherboard for a specific SSD controller, specific DRAM cache chips and specific Flash chips, as that gives them way less flexibility in component sourcing during production lifecycle and more expense in board design resulting in more expensive products with no extra margins for them.
Apple can do this economically as they have a very tightly controlled supply chain with high volumes and due to the little variation in SKUs so they can just use the same SSD controller on all their products and just change the amount of Flash chips soldered on the board and call it a day.
Which you can replace/upgrade too.
also, pretty sure that is correct english, why the [sic]?
> also, pretty sure that is correct english, why the [sic]?
Perfectly correct English yes - I just meant that I was disagreeing with that, you're not locked to it. (I don't think it's an incorrect use of it, but thinking about it it's not a common one - can just quote and say 'that's not right' after all - so I don't know I bothered, sorry.)
fair enough :)
and I saw that guide too. my skepticism is regarding what happens when the next generation (or an AMD variant) arrives. will the new mainboards be drop-in replacements for the old? if nothing else, this would make it difficult to radically change the cooling solution, which could be a big problem for the dGPU machine I'd like to see.
maybe my initial comment was too harsh. they have delivered a fully user-repairable machine, which is a great thing. but what I want is a fully upgradable machine, in the sense of a DIY desktop build. they have made some vague promises around the latter, but I'll reserve my judgement until I see it actually happen.
I have a MacBook Pro w/ Retina Display from Mid-2012. It cannot be fixed for a reasonable price, despite it being still mostly perfect for my daughter's school computing.
This computer definitely interests me (as someone who moved back to Ubuntu / Regolith this year)
I bought a laptop at the beginning of 2020 after the GPU on my old one fried. What I wanted was something with a Cat6 and DisplayPort built in for when I'm in my office, and multiple USB-A ports for the peripherals I use (mouse/keyboard/mic/speakers). I had to settle for one with a single extra USB-C port, an additional USB-C hub to get enough USB-A ports and a Cat6, and an adaptor for the built-in HDMI port to hook up to the DisplayPort on my monitor, which set me back a total of like $100 on top of the cost of the laptop itself. The laptop also has a headset jack and large card reader that I have yet to use, so that's just wasted space that could have potentially been something I would have actually used.
e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular than iphone.
EDIT yes, which happened, favouring the theory; despite iphone still leading performance, due to integration even to cpu and gpu.
Well Android already is more popular than iphone worldwide.
Because it’s true. The thing is “power users” and “regular users” look at that tradeoff differently. The bad part of economies of scale is that they reward conformity (you can pick your model T in any color, as long as that color is black).
The framework would a hard time competing in the general laptop market, but luckily for them, they don’t have to. There’s a niche for specialized products and they are taking advantage.
I’ve looking at their laptops since they announced, I’m just hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I’ll be on the fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM pro laptop (14”-15”).
I'm in the same boat. While I in principle would love to invest in a powerful AMD laptop with tons of upgradeability with decent Linux support, Apple's next offerings which may give upgraded displays, my favorite trackpads, impressive power and ~20 hours of battery life is very hard to ignore.
XPS 13: $1020
* i5
* 8 GB RAM
* 256 GB storage
* 1920 x 1200 display
* 1.2 kg, 11.6" x 7.8" x 0.6"
MacBook Pro: $1300
* M1
* 8 GB RAM
* 256 GB storage
* 2560 x 1600 display
* 1.4kg, 12" x 8.7" x 0.6"
This isn't even accounting for repairability as a feature. Consumers don't care about that as it stands, because they don't know they should. But once they realize, it will become a selling point, too.
That said, I love the concept and plan to buy one next year, when they hopefully will have means to sell in the EU without outrageous shipping+import duties.
Me too. An I'm annoyed I fell for the lie that board level repair is impossible. What the manufacturers really should be saying is "it's impossible for us" because it's obviously possible for 3rd parties to do it and make a business out of it.
I'm willing to pay +$100 for something that's assembled with screws instead of glues.
Why should we believe anything any for-profit company says, without verifying (whenever possible)? Drug companies lie all the time, about having to price their drugs absurdly high. Facebook lies all the time about not being able to fact check, without even attempting to try seriously. And on and on.
The insane thing is not that companies lie. It is that the general public has either given up or duped into thinking these companies cannot possible lie. We have created an economic system where profit trumps everything else.
The three internal upgrad-ables are nice if you think that things will drastically change in RAM, SSD, or Wifi before the CPU, mainboard or faster connections to faster RAM and SSD make the effect of said upgrad-ables to be gilding a turd. Otherwise periodically buy the midrange storage and allow the secondary market to absorb your environmental guilt.
Nothing epoxied shut or soldered in place, and the metal cases on recent generations of these HP models are sturdier than the older plastic. Our lead tech has replaced HP laptop batteries, keyboards and displays when needed with no issues. HP is also one of the few brands with backlit keyboards standard on most laptops, even down to the lower-end models I've encountered since 2018.
But the Frameworks sure look intriguing!
Finally, somehow got one via Amazon supplied from a state 1600 KMs away from here for about $80 in a week time. It could very well be expensive than the one gotten from the service center but, was left with no option.
With the exception of being able to repair and replace parts, the Frame.work laptop is very boring.
I’ve waited months for Lenovo to sort their supply-chain issues and I’m still quarreling with poor drivers but the Ryzen in this T14s I have is just embarrassingly capable.
I don't understand that choice, but to make the laptop thin, no, a Thinkpad T14 is thin (maybe not as a Macbook, but who cares about a couple of millimeters) and integrates a full size ethernet connector.
What is the point of modular IO if the IO that you are giving me is just USB, HDMI and a micro (not even full size) SD card reader?
I would expect to have a whole range of possible ports, for example I use a lot RS232 ports, I would have liked to find a module to add a serial port to my laptop.
My other deal breaker is the fit & finish of Mac's touchpad. The qwan of it.
If frame.work + Ubuntu come within striking distance, I'd buy.
One topic, though, that I just cannot let stand without comment is the notion that Thinkpads are bad now. I have a Thinkpad X1 Extreme (gen2) and - apart from the stupid name - it is hands down the best Linux Laptop I ever had.
There simply is no "...secretive Nvidia graphics cards, strange BIOS rubbish...". At least with Fedora it just works (including rendering offload to the NVidia card if you want that.)
I'm sure if one uses external monitor most of the time, then 13" is more than sufficient.
that said, maybe things are moving slower now, but it seems like a bit of a fetishization of a past that wasn't that great to begin with.
the focus on reducing waste is good, but honestly what is more modular here than your average laptop with memory and storage doors?
The replaceable port idea doesn’t factor into my use case - I’d rather have the 4 thunderbolts or a generous assortment of video output and usb ports plus a card reader, honestly. Everything else is really cool and exciting though!
Thanks to Apple’s privacy bungles I’ve already turned iCloud enabled features and their convenient integration into a nice to have from a necessity and cancelled my subscription so I can switch any time to an alternative vendor and lose very little apart from the clipboard sync, wifi phone calls and airdrop.
So I’m genuinely excited to switch to Linux when I need to.
> Base and Performance configurations ship with Windows 10 Home pre-installed and Professional ships with Windows 10 Pro pre-installed. You can also load your own operating system later, like a Linux distribution.
So... Forced windows tax, even when Dell can manage for Linux. Yuck. Like, really yuck.
And for the specs:
> Base $999.00
> i5-1135G7 | 8GB Memory | 256GB Storage | WiFi 6 | Windows 10 Home
8 gigs of ram? Well, I guess that's 1 chrome or firefox window open, and an electron app. And .25TB ssd? That's great for a machine 8 years ago.
I'll stick with Dell's Business line. They're rugged, parts are serialized and easy to order/obtain. Pass on the "Framework".
Assembly took me about 5 minutes.
So, it's a bad laptop in my book (pun not intended).
You see, a laptop needs a good keyboard; and a good keyboard needs height for the keys to travel. So, a laptop needs to be kind of "think as a brick". Maybe not at 2005 levels, but definitely at 2010 levels and no thinner.
However - a laptop which is reasonably easy to disassemble, and hence customize, is definitely something I support in principle. I'm not sure this can catch on if it's essentially a single-vendor thing.
Takes me 30 seconds to boot up and 4 seconds to shutdown running Debian since forever.
Does what I want and gets out of the way. Never really felt anything missing performance wise.
This is the bit I'm most sceptical about. Time will tell if these sorts of upgrades are actually made available.
No AMD means no sale for this guy. Wasting money on Intel gear in 2021. I mean, why even bother
Does the trackpad not support pressing anywhere with 1, 2, and 3 fingers for left, right, and middle click, respectively? I'm hoping that it's supported, but the author just doesn't want to use that kind of setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfVZhCTx6Tc&t=34s (starts 13 minutes in)
I checked out the site and found one problem with it. I had no way of knowing both the screen resolution and whether the hard drive it ships is SSD or not.
It is a very intriguing idea though.
NVMe SSDs and 2256x1504
I can’t really fathom why anyone would buy laptops at this rate. It seems so incredibly wasteful. The author is free to ship me his 2019 laptop. I will no problem putting it to good use.
Regardless, his donating the laptops doesn't mean he needs to buy new ones. Why is he going through them so fast in the first place? If he really wants to give laptops away, why not just buy new laptops and give them to people? Or why not just take the money he would put to new laptops and donate the cash to people? Given his actions up until now, I would be willing to bet that he would just dump the Framework laptop and buy a new one (or another) whenever the first (replaceable) component fails. He seems like a paragon of waste of resources. I don't understand why he considers the Framework as necessary for him.
Hmm. Framework vs M1 16" (if they ever get released).
Now I just buy a MacBook and the concept of "things breaking" and "having to fix my computer" just isn't a thing anymore.
I'm dual booting Win10 and Debian, and absolutely no issues under Windows so far either.
The battery life is great, the screen is extremely crisp and bright, and the keyboard actually feels decent to type on.
I wonder if they'll do ARM variants?
That might both satisfy the demand often expressed, by people like us, for more upgradability/repair ability and make other manufacturers steal some of their best ideas.
how feasible is this, given that sockets and chipsets change every 2 years? also, the ultra low voltage / TDP parts are rarely available for purchase by end users.
How often they'll actually have new options, how much they'll cost, and how long they'll stick to the compatible form factor from these initial units are definite question marks that will only become clear over time.
For Framework themselves, assuming they survive long enough for it to be a problem, the balance between new customers and entirely new machines and upgrades (and what that looks like in terms of margins) will presumably be a potential challenge, also.
Finally a manufacturer that is offering a more "desktop" build experience in a laptop form factor. Framework will be my first choice when I need a new laptop.
I'll definitely be a buyer when they support AMD!
Edit: yes - https://community.frame.work/t/windows-11/2451
Why? I bought a thinkpad and used it for 7 years. Who needs a new laptop every year? Especially these days
Sorry I know it's besides the point of the article but it stood out to me
That would place them above System76 in my ranking, and it is the only criterion stopping my hand to purchase one right now...
I believe you cannot replace/upgrade the CPU. At least that’s what I remember reading.
You’ll have to buy a new one, but you can always use the old ram, wifi chip (if it’s still supported) and SSD.
I've been using Thinkpads for a couple decades now, in some ways the quality has wavered (partially due to contemporary concessions like compromises to be thinner) but they are still in general the best mainstream systems to run Linux with end user and field support. I've installed Ubuntu on every system, especially in the last years it has "just worked," and Lenovo even increasing offers Ubuntu pre-installed on some models.
It would be great if the windows is not pre-installed, and let Linux lovers have the opportunity to opt-out and get dollars back (the windows os license fee)
[1] https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition/configuration...
Unfortunately the signup form is broken!
What's stopping you from putting a bigger drive into a Lenovo?
Would love to see ethernet (if it's even possible with this thinness) and a regular SD port.
All the components here are proprietary to Framework (?)
If they should go out of business, which often happens with these efforts, then you have no way to source parts and you are stuck.
There really is not much customization they offer, at least not now. the expansion bays seem to be the major components now.
Selectable when you buy the machine: CPU (non replaceable?) , WIFI, Storage, memory,
power adapter yes/no, operating system yes / no
Not configurable: (yet?) Screen, Camera, Fingerprint reader, battery. Hardware switch for camera, NA.
A slight look back at laptops:
Old style laptops / enterprise laptops: ---------------------------------------- Battery can be swapped by sliding a open a plastic lock. Swap batteries in seconds.
Different sized batteries were available, some taking up more space giving your laptop a "bump".
RAM was beneath a small hatch easily accessible from the bottom of the unit by removing two screws and direct access.
Often the hard drive was accessible easily as well
Two bays with no tool swappable, cd, extra storage/2nd hard drive, and some more exotic things.
Then we had PCMCIA Card a long time ago. Most of my laptops had two bays. No tool swappable. Wide selection.
Farmework -------------
Switching out the battery is far too complicated: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85...
>Be extremely careful when sliding the Battery connector out, >as it is very easy to accidently bend the pins. >Make sure to slide straight down, and avoid letting the >connector twist or bend.
You should not have to perform surgery on the box switch the battery.
It should not involve screws at all.
With the placement of the battery in Framework,, it is hard to see how they can upgrade it based on size limits. Hopefully, they will offer an extension battery of some sort .
Where is the space for the dvd/cdrom? (Some still use it. I love it for livecd, where the entire OS and file system is Read only. Every time you boot its clean.
4 user selectable expansions cards are unique and cool as long as they are available, and someone makes a wider assortment of them
It is really cool that you can got at the guts and replace things and it is great that this is available. I would just want to do a lot of it a lot easier.
Presumably, it become a h
Even now, in 2021, PCMCIA/PCCARD remains my all-time favorite form-factor for add-ons, etc.
https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition/configuration...
Anyone from framework here to provide an ETA on int’l availability timeframe? (Specifically Australia!)
They have a sign up form where you can be notified when it is available in your country. Right now only USA AND Canada.
I bought the DIY edition for a combination of wanting to bring my own components and not pay for Windows, and generally liking a little bit of tinkering. Installing the stupid little WiFi module antenna connectors was the only annoying part.
No PIO port, no high speed serial port (and before you suggest USB<>Serial that means another external interface). Also maybe it is for the future but somehow I missed seeing any Ethernet ports either.
Also, is there a base dongle that we can add our own hardware/software too? Just having a dongle with a onboard programmable Arduino which can be programmed by the user would help a lot.
It also fixed complaints about keyboards.
I’d rather get my work done at the desk and then enjoy my hammock or couch without the computer, preferably with a good book.
I'm currently writing this at a coffee shop surrounded by others all working on various things. I really like the option to work from anywhere.
Personally I loved the idea of working from a coffee shop until I actually tried it. Then I found that the glamour of the idea was much more than the experience of trying to do focused work in a noisy environment on a cramped keyboard. So instead I do work in my office, and leave my laptop permanently closed and connected like the worlds most expensive Mac Mini.
Outside of work, 90% of people I know have a laptop as their main computing device at home. Very few have a desktop PC - those are the PC gamers.
Your anecdotal experience doesn't match with my anecdotal experience.
I was really late to switch and I don't regret it at all. Almost everyone I know made this switch 5+ years ago before me.
I also needed a laptop anyway with the battlestations, because I travel for work. Now it's all in one package and I spent a lot less money on it.
I don't know a single person who uses their laptop in one place. Hell, every one of my co-workers has been at home or in the office with their machine at least a couple times over the past month.
Laptop ergonomics are catastrophically bad. Doing any meaningful work on them for any length of time without my keyboard, monitor, and mouse just plain sucks, so I don’t do it.
My personal machines (gaming and non) are both desktops. I’ve never wanted to move them, and they cost me a fraction of what an equivalent laptop would have.
The only other solution I could envision I'd be happy with is one that doesn't exist: where I have a processor and storage "core" that I can use in a variety of dumb terminals. That's my real dream, but a dockable laptop is kind of similar.
The one thing I want to do in a mobile fashion is take notes and do zoom meetings, a need that my iPad meets handily.
The funny thing is that the laptop is actually incapable of doing the one thing I would reasonably want it to do: work outside. It overheats within 5 minutes and slows to a halt if I dare let the sun hit it. Both the iPad and iPhone handle this task easily, weirdly enough.
And this is really the issue I have with laptops; they try to be everything to everyone and they end up sucking at any given one task as a result. Compared to my Mac mini my MBP is expensive and underpowered with compromised ergonomics and thermals. Compared to my iPad my laptop has poor battery life, weighs a ton, and overheats in the sun. All that buying a MBP has done is waste $2k extra of $CORPs money, and produce a bit more e-waste given the short upgrade cycle they have me on.
Any thread about linux or a linux machine turns into this. People promoting macs.
The hacker culture really has changed a lot in the past 10 years.
Maybe with an external GPU?
I bet you are! This look bad@ss.
Carbon is about size and weight of Macbook air
tl;dr Framework's shopping site is broken in case of light color blindness.
What a fucking travesty.
And note how this laptop has removable DDR4 SODIMM sticks!
I couldn't believe it when people were arguing that's impossible because signal pathways or some shit (too many laptops have it soldered these days).
"Responding to your comments on the Framework investment" - One of LTT channels
Surprisingly NSFW, because they show a clip from Louis Rossman's Video talking about Linus' investment (its pretty funny, because it was Live)
It's not bring your own but still upgradable, which is what I care about, especially with a smaller company obviously trying to keep everything ethics of repairability.
I will miss the Apple speakers when I am finally forced to switch away.
No 16 inch screen option.
No numpad option.
Pass.
> No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.
I said "pass" which simply means it doesn't work for me, for the 3 reasons I listed:
- sub-par CPU
- screen too small
- keyboard missing key featuresOk. You know who has "opened ordering" in my region? Every other laptop vendor.
I like that this company is making completely replaceable parts though. The idea of being able to upgrade ram again sounds like a real benefit… it’s embarrassing that sentence even has to be muttered.
https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability?sort=score
While, yes, they may be built well in your mind, in many other people's minds they aren't.