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Comment by dbt00 | Hacker News Reader

That was always my dad's pitch to me. Don't give those fuckers one thin dime. I casually smoked cigarettes in college, but never seriously and every time I bought a pack I looked at the logo on the back and reminded myself that I hated those fuckers and I wasn't going to keep doing it. I quit before my first kid was born.

My grandfather had lung cancer twice. He quit smoking after the first time. His wife couldn't. She spent 10 years in long, slow COPD decline after he passed.

Don't fucking do it. And don't buy fucking nicotine vapes, either. Fuck those assholes.

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You realize the NHS in the UK recommends using e-cigs as harm reduction?

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/using-e-cigarettes...

E cigs worked for me quitting: I replaced analogue smoking with strong nicotine (18mg) MTL vaping which I used whenever I had the urge. Over the course of 6 months I gradually moved to a 3mg suspension as I found the stronger liquids were making me feel sick (especially in the morning). After about a year I couldnt decide on a vape flavour I liked any more (they all tasted odd) at which point I stopped carrying the vape with me and didn't miss it. I now dont use it at all. I realised the times I smoked were more from habit i.e. Ive just had lunch, a ciggy follows that" "Im going to make a phone call light up", rather than than an addiction that harrasses you to the core, 24x7. My wife still smokes and has tried various ways to quit, but ultimately she wants to smoke so continues. I smell tobacco smoke now and whilst I don't dislike the smell, being a room while someone smokes is not something I enjoy and can barely believe I used to happily sit in (UK) pubs all weekend smoking, playing pool etc.

It's been 2 years since quitting - started at 17 and quit age 39 as a very heavy smoker (20 pack + a day). I have always been very active but found my lung capacity, endurance and ability to perform are all much increased. I used to get the occasional chest pain and those have gone now, too. I just hope I havent done too much damage and can enjoy my kids, my garden, my physicality.. for as long as I can - my father in law has COPD and it is not a pretty end to a guy who used to be very a strong, physically capable guy.

I would encourage anyone to quit tobacco by whatever reasonable means & (my hunble) experience tells me vaping is way better than tobacco smoking.

Guess which fuckers paid for that

Huh? It's called following the science.

Yes, but one should understand how science is usually done. Some scientists are getting grants from private funds, some don’t, and most scientists rely heavily on getting grant money to live and to continue their research. In medical science, nutrition, psychology, economics, sociology, it’s very easy to conduct a research that would be favorable to major fund donors.

Refer to how “science” covered smoking for decades, how eating fat was thought to be harmful for decades, how major economists missed every single crisis, and how many economist-led mutual funds went bust. And also who sponsored each research.

Of course, it’s not how it works in “real” sciences like physics, because criteria on research results are very strict there. But you should by default be very skeptical about any groundbreaking results in social sciences.

This isn’t social science?

It’s a “vaping has far fewer toxic chemicals compared to cigarette smoke” type science.

I’d argue that “far fewer” is not that much of a science. How much less of each exactly? How does the smaller amount affect cancer and other diseases? (linearly? sublinearly? no long-term effect from this reduction in dose? Higher cancer risk because of the vapor?)

How smokers’ habits change with vaping? Do they vape more often than they had smoked? Is vaping more social, hence more people get “sucked in”? Do children start vaping earlier? Long term, is starting vaping better than trying to stop smoking?

So many facets, so much beyond “we found this number smaller, therefore we recommend smokers to vape now”

What are the negative health effects of nicotine versus, for example, caffeine? I've always wondered how much "healthier" vaping really is compared to cigars and cigarettes, but I wouldn't know how to make an evidence-based argument. Googled it a few times with mixed results.

Pure nicotine seems to be harmless except in overdose, the main side effect being a compulsive need to consume more nicotine. Whether the delivery mechanism in vaping, year after year, is harmless, is a different question. Anecdotally, I used a nicotine vape to quit smoking -- and they're wonderful for that -- but when I quit that as well, my chest went through a phase where it cleared out all manner of gunk not unlike when I quit smoking cigarettes.

> Pure nicotine seems to be harmless except in overdose

I think there’s also some sort of negative cardiovascular symptoms, but I would be unsurprised if caffeine had its own.

It's hard to separate the impacts of plain nicotine from the impact of cigarettes because the literature is almost entirely focused on smokers, and scientific writing sometimes conflates the two. That said,

> Nicotine constricts blood vessels, including those in the skin and coronary blood vessels, but dilates blood vessels in skeletal muscle. Vasoconstriction of the skin results in reduced skin blood flow and reduced fingertip skin temperature.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4958544/

Vessel constriction or dilation by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. CO2 is a potent vasodilator, but no one would claim holding/pacing your breath for swimming is a bad thing. Caffeine too has a strong vasoconstricting effect.

Sure, I was not trying to make the claim that constriction or dilation was a bad thing.

Cardiovascular effects of nicotine are probably more dangerous than potential carcinogenic nature of smoking.

edit: smoking is carcinogenic, but how much of it is because of nicotine I wouldn't know; a smoker might not live long enough to find out at what age the cancer develops if he drops dead because of the heart infarct.

I cannot imagine sincerely believing a statement that is so blatantly wrong. Moreover, there’s nothing ‘potentially’ carcinogenic about smoking, it is a known carcinogen.

> Cardiovascular effects of nicotine are probably more dangerous than potential carcinogenic nature of smoking.

Have any evidence to support this novel claim?

Smoking is carcinogenic because it involves incomplete combustion of tobacco, the products of which are directly inhaled. Nothing to do with nicotine.

This is contrary to everything I have read about the health impact of nicotine. Do you have suitable references to back up these claims?

It’s not super helpful for aiding concentration. I tried it for a few months this year in my 30s, thinking it’d help with my ADHD. Never been a smoker. It didn’t help. Also any time I had it on me I’d find myself absentmindedly puffing on it. If you really are into nootropics just be real and get an Adderall prescription.

Dr. Peter Attia has a podcast with detailed medical information on the effects of nicotine.

https://peterattiamd.com/ama23/

I don't know the health effects of pure nicotine (say, in liquid form) vs caffeine, but one is certainly much more addictive than the other.

> I don't know the health effects of pure nicotine (say, in liquid form) vs caffeine, but one is certainly much more addictive than the other.

Which one did you have in mind, and why do you say certainly?

Nicotine is more addictive than caffeine. I'm not going to find peer-reviewed, double-blind studies to back up my claim. I'm going to go with the anecdotes I've heard for decades and from personal experience.

I'm not going to argue with your opinion -- but I suspect you are conflating tobacco (usually smoked) with nicotine.

Isn't nicotine the primary addictive chemical in cigarettes and vapes

https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine#sn2

The vapes don't have the MAOIs, which could also be why my brother didn't find them very satisfying (apart from the THC vapes).

There are "whole tobacco alkaloid" liquids (full-spectrum extract of tobacco vs. pure nicotine) available which contains a lot of the other stuff. Probably more addictive so I'd avoid it if your goal is to quit.

I believe it. There's vapes for everything. Was just focusing on parent's nicotine addictiveness statement that gwern addresses.

I've seen a few posts around saying vapes are about to be banned here in Australia. Have no idea if its true or not.

Still available with a prescription: https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/vapers-told...

Get a dry herb vaporizer and vape loose leaf tobacco. Takes a while to find the combination of temperature and herb that doesn't taste like shit, and it's also not the same as a real cigarette but it does the thing.

You also inhale less matter than with an ecig, so I think it may end up being healthier... but I'm like, the only person I know that does this daily so science may never know.

Totally with you, my intuition is loose leaf pure tobacco is much less harmful and for a while when I still smoked I couldn't stand regular cigarettes, also preferred rolling my own, both for the gesture and the taste.

Nicotine vapes have been banned for about a year here, the stupid fucks in government just love to funnel cash to big tobacco.

Nicotine is as harmful as caffeine, no more, no less. Nobody's going around campaigning against Big Espresso.

That nicotine is fine because it’s no worse than caffeine is a lie I see pedalled unquestioningly by pro-vape folk on the internet all the time. Linking the harmfulness of cigarettes to coffee is an old tactic of tobacco companies and they still use it for vaping. It’s not true.

I never said anything about cigarettes, I was talking about nicotine. Cigarettes give you cancer. Nicotine does not.

My dad always said that too. I've gotten around that one by accumulating a lot of Altria stock in my IRA over the years. Now I am those fuckers. Really, I view their massive dividend as sort of a health plan. At least I'm getting something back.

You're making money off of the death of your fellow man and you're trying to tell us that it's okay. It's not okay, you're helping them.

Pff. Please. I smoke a pack a day. I'm getting cash back on my own medical bill. If you invest in Altria, then yeah, you'd be profiting off my death.

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