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Comment by jack_riminton | Hacker News Reader

Whenever a rankings table comes out with a result like this it probably succeeds in selling some papers, but it also diminishes the esteem of the rankings table

I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college. But very few in academia would say its as brilliant as Oxbridge

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It would be good if people could stop hero-worshiping famous universities and people from those universities. There are quite a few idiots who graduate from these institutions.

> I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college.

It's not a 'college' at all.

In American speech it is. Anything which teaches undergraduates and awards college degrees is a college. They can also have a research university attach to it, but it is still a college.

It doesn't make sense to me how here in Europe universities tries to say that they aren't anything but a university. Americans got this one right. How else would you compare where to study? Do you say "university rankings" but include non universities there that doesn't do research? You go there to do college studies, and try to find the best place to do college studies, why say it is wrong to call it a college?

> You go there to do college studies

An undergraduate degree isn't 'college studies' in British English. Nobody would say that.

> why say it is wrong to call it a college?

Why is it wrong to call it a fish? Because it's not a fish.

Why is it wrong to call it a college? Because it's not a college.

But this is a mostly American forum? Why say it is wrong to use the American word? Everyone understands what the poster meant. You wouldn't correct someone using the American billion just because it happened to be about a UK company either.

Seems rude to mis-title something or someone from another culture?

Like all these lunatics yesterday talking about 'Sir Sinclair'.

Calling it a 'college' makes it sound like something less than it is. I would try not to mis-title things from another culture myself.

Because in the UK "college" means a variety of things, none of which apply to St Andrews?

"College" in the UK education system already has a definition; it is the place you go from 16 to 18, studying a narrower curriculum than regular school prior to 16. You will also hear references to "sixth form college", which is the same 16-18 education but delivered at the same physical school as under-16 teaching.

Given the time of day and the subject matter I suspect most people discussing this on here are not from the US.

In US colloquial English the term 'college' is used to refer to ANY academic (non-trade) schools where a 'college' degree (above 'high' school) can be earned. Like it or lump it.

This is hardly a 'slam' for St Andrews; aluminum is more concise than aluminium, as is 'math' compared to 'maths'.

In the US a 'public' school is -not- elite (fee-charging); the general 'public' is welcome there. Not just stuck-up nit-pickers.

Whoosh

Someone needs is a good fish-slapping.

So should they fudge the numbers to maintain the "esteem of the rankings table"?

Except the students who went there I guess.

Mind you, these are not colleges, these are universities. Colleges are not as highly esteemed in the UK.

The two most common usages of “college” in UK education are:

  - pre-university education for 16-18 year olds. This is where you complete qualifications for university entry, such as A Levels, Scottish Highers, or the IB, as well as more vocationally aligned qualifications like BTEC or NVQ. This stage of education used to be optional but recently became compulsory.
  - institutions within a larger university umbrella. This includes the colleges of Oxford, Cambridge and Durham. For example, Jesus College of the University of Oxford or Magdalene College of the University of Cambridge. Very few UK universities use a college system, it is mostly a historical legacy seen in very old universities.

Another reply mentions Imperial College London: many of the London universities are colleges of the University of London, but I think this system is mostly so they can share/issue one University of London degree, and that they don’t have the same degree of centralised administration that the Oxbridge college system does.

EDIT: updated to reflect that A levels aren’t the only pre-university qualification in the UK

> Another reply mentions Imperial College London

I guess it was cited as this is a fairly elite forum and it is a fairly elite university. Imperial actially left the University of London system and now issues its own degrees (left in 2007).

It doesnt actually change the point above, but just a corrections all the same.

"UK education"

Nitpick: not all of the UK uses A-levels.

Apologies, a good nitpick! Particularly since the thread is for St Andrews so the Scottish Highers are definitely worth mentioning :)

The international baccalaureate is also becoming more widely available.

I thought the international baccalaureate would take over from the old a-levels system years ago. Still hasnt really gained as much traction as I would have expected.

Probably sounds too french.

They are both colleges and universities by US terminology. For example Harvard is both a college and university, the undergrad part is the college part.

They're basically a different thing in the UK, I think. At the risk of stereotyping, they're where you go to get vocational qualifications (further, as opposed to higher, education).

There is a slight naming clash though, for some institutions such as Cambridge and Oxford, where Cambridge university (for example) is made up of a number of colleges https://map.cam.ac.uk/colleges/

This is not the same as an independent institution which is a college (for example Cambridge regional college https://www.camre.ac.uk/)

Good point. The collegiate universities are a different matter.

Not necessarily, vocational qualifications in the U.K. (the NVQ) are often available at sixth-form colleges, but they will also teach the non-vocational A-level qualifications too. I don’t think there’s any consistency to what mix of vocational vs non-vocational certificate you can expect at an institution based on use of the word college.

Imperial College London has a pretty good rep, no? Even when compared to most universities in the UK?

Imperial college is just a part of the university of London.

Like many words in the UK, sometimes “college” is used in a more historical meaning

Imperial College is not part of the University of London (it left in 2007).

In any case, the ‘University of London’ is an almost meaningless umbrella institution. Its members function as separate universities for all practical purposes.

It's not a part of the university of London anymore.

But this is semantics really, apparently the GP meant a very specific type of college but didn't communicate this and colleges that are universities under the hood aren't part of that unstated definition.

Despite its name, it is considered a university.

To be precise, colleges are usually sixth-form colleges for 16-18 year olds.

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