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Comment by omgitsabird | Hacker News Reader

This seems rather vague. Can you give examples of propaganda?

Anything you see on the front page of youtube, i.e. you didn't specifically search for it, is most likely being promoted by some ad agency or think tank somewhere down the line. Meaning it's propaganda to some extent. The exceptions to this rule are, of course, independent creators that the algorithm latches onto, but the algorithm only promotes videos that people are gonna click on and generate revenue for Youtube. That is, in a way, controlled propaganda too.

I see "African grey parrot singing along to I can see clearly now", "Cucumbers are cat's enemy - Funny Pet Reaction | Purr Purr", "Cockatoo Farts and Runs Away", "House Relax: Ed Sheeran, Martin Garrix, Kygo, Dua Lipa, Avicii, The...", "Venezuela 1-3 Argentina | Eliminatorias a Qatar 2022 -...", etc.

This is because yesterday I looked at videos of Alex the African grey parrot.

As far as I can tell, there are no ad agencies or think tanks involved here, except I guess that Atlantic Records made Ed Sheeran more popular than he was already by promoting him. I think this is pretty much purely "videos that people are gonna click on".

The propaganda is in what's missing.

I see the "House Relax" one when I go to YouTube in a private window without signing in. It seems to be one of the "stock" links that YouTube shows complete newbies that have never been there before (as far as it knows), so I'm guessing it's pretty strongly advertised presumably at the behest of the ad agencies.

I do, always, see three or four covid-19 videos when I go to the main YT page. Whatever you think about their message, they look like propaganda to me.

The current “ivermectin is a dangerous horse dewormer” debacle has been the biggest example of a moment where I’m not sure whether everyone is lying at this point. YouTube censored a few videos with actual experts and doctors who were discussing ivm.

Yes we had issues with HCQ in the beginning, but ivm is being actually studied right now by Oxford Uni/NHS in their big covid trials in the UK… it’s amazing what a hit job the media is doing on it.

There's a difference between trials and it being suitable for public use though, right? It is undeniably a horse dewormer, and has had some use on humans, but not as a covid treatment.

For me, it's about preventing people that aren't medical professionals from self-medicating with a potentially harmful substance. Plus there's been some less than stellar suggestions of covid treatments in the past ranging from dubious to lethal. If it turns out to be safe, then doctors will no doubt prescribe it as necessary.

I would hope so.

My point about “horse dewormer” is that some articles in the media list it as just that without mentioning at all that it is also human medication. Look at the recent articles about Joe Rogan, they couldn’t stop themselves.

Afaik the only difference between human and animal ivm are levels of impurity.

That's because people are literally buying and eating horse dewormer. Its in a package that says "horse dewormer" on it. It's sold at livestock stores in the "horse medicine" section. The media is 100% correct to call what people are poisoning themselves with "horse dewormer".

I bet you get mad at the news for reporting rain because water exists in other forms, and has other ways of moving about besides rain right?

Did Joe Rogan literally buy and eat something from a package that says "horse dewormer" on it? You willingly ignored the salient parts of the comment you responded to (ironically providing more evidence of the very phenomenon that they're trying to discuss).

No, it was prescribed by his doctor.

Which brings up another point: some pharmacies are refusing to fill it, even when prescribed by a doctor. If you want to place the blame for people getting "horse dewormer", such pharmacies deserve part of the blame.

Too bad most of the people who want horse dewormer were the same people who wanted the "pharmacist conscience" laws that allow pharmacists to deny their veterinary prescriptions. Who would have thought that such a law would come back to bite them.

Since you dodged the question, it's worth asking again.

The complaint, stated by sprafa, is: "Look at the recent articles about Joe Rogan, they couldn’t stop themselves."

... to which you responded, ignoring the complaint and doubling down, right before kicking it up a notch with a personal attack/shameless attempt to strawman ("I bet you get mad at the news for[...] right?").

So did Rogan literally buy and eat something from a package that says "horse dewormer" or not?

It's really hard to poison yourself with ivermectin if you're a vertebrate. Apparently the total number of poisoning cases in the US, a country of 330 million people, is about 500, and the vast majority of those cases had minor or no effects; people were just worried. So if you buy horse dewormer in a livestock store and take it, you'll probably still be fine.

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-pl...

Calling ivermectin horse dewormer is like calling penicillin cow antibiotics or fish tank saver.

It's in significant use in humans.

It's in significant use in humans as a dewormer, though. It's used in humans to treat river blindness which is caused by a worm. It's also used for the prevention of worms in dogs. It's fair to call it a dewormer, even if you disagree with including the 'horse' part.

It's not an anti-viral in any sense of the word.

Correct, and while it's use as an anti-viral has been noted pre-covid we don't understand what it's method of action is, or why it sometimes behaves as an anti-viral.

I'm not recommending using drugs we don't understand or have a full picture of. I am recommending to stop calling it horse dewormer. At the very least call it an anti-parasitic in use in the 3rd and 2nd worlds.

You can drop the '3rd and 2nd worlds' part. It's used for the treatment of parasites in the 1st world as well.

I'm not a infectious diseases expert, but to my knowledge the viruses that it's been found to be effective against are all mosquito borne; it's just as likely related to it's toxic action on mosquitos in general. Still, it's all baseless conjecture on everyone's part. If someone cares to throw money at it, it's something that can be investigated.

At the end of the day just get the widely available vaccine and move on with life, like you would for other viruses that we've got vaccines for. I feel like we're all making this way harder than it has to be just so we can all continue to yell at each other.

I believe there have been studies showing that ivermectin is not useful against covid in these situations either.

Two people in my circle were taking IVM pre-pandemic to treat rosacea and lyme disease. This is not an obscure drug in the 1st world. It also doesn't need to be an anti-viral to work on covid - it's already a general anti-inflammatory. Inflammation of the lungs is why people can't breath and often die, and that inflammation is due to the body's own immune response, not the virus itself. The virus is gone by that point. But our standard protocol at first symptoms does not include treating potential inflammation, so by the time people get to hospital it's often too late. It's not good.

Ok, I'll be more specific. Using the word "horse" is like calling other medications that are used on people and dogs as "dog" medicine.

The qualifier is not necessary. Truthfully, they should just call it ivermectin and describe what it actually is, how it has actually been used, and the current state of research showing that currently has little proof of effectiveness though there are trials ongoing.

Exactly. But no one does this. Why?

I figured that term had taken off because people were acquiring it from farm stores or pet supply places, so they were literally buying "horse dewormer", as it might be labeled on the packaging or signage. Same as they do for other off-prescription medications (antibiotics).

I mean, it's quite likely the ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine has some effect against the virus in the early stages of infection, but their use needs to be balanced against their side effects, of which there are many. It's like how bleach kills cancer cells, but you really shouldn't be treating cancer with it...

I believe ivermectin is a far safer drug than HCQ.

I mean, it's great that you personally believe something, but to make ethical medical decisions we need lots of clinical data. If your belief is well founded, which it damn well might be, the data should bear that out.

The data on the safety of Ivermectin is very well established. It's well-known to be very safe with pretty minimal side effects and extremely low serious side effect rates despite the billions of doses handed out over the past decades.

The real question is about its anti-viral properties. We know they exist, but don't know why or to what extent. Further, we don't know if they extend to COVID and we don't now if the effective dosage is high enough to increase the rates of side effects (especially bad ones).

The result is extremists on both sides saying wild garbage. Either it's the salvation of mankind hidden from you by the grand conspiracy or it's toxic horse dewormer that will certainly kill anyone who even approaches it.

This is a real problem. If I were researching Ivermectin and COVID, I'd be scared that loonies from one side or the other might attempt to hurt me or ruin my life over their delusions.

We have lots of clinical data, their belief is well founded, and the data does bear that out. It's as if you commented without even skimming the Wikipedia article about ivermectin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin#Contraindications

It is rather vague, but I have the same impression. So N=2

Oh come on... spend 10 minutes on YouTube and you'll find tons of it.

There have been countless articles and posts written about this problem over the last several years.

I would challenge _you_ to go educate yourself on this rather than ask others to bring this widely available and widely accepted information to you.

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