Hacker News Reader

Comment by imwillofficial | Hacker News Reader

I hope there is somebody as brave as she was in the current government of South Africa. The plight of Dutch farmers there getting murdered en mass is a sad state of affairs.

View on HN

According to Wikipedia 54-74 white farmers have been killed in South Africa in the past 5 years. Compared to the annual murder rate of 20,000 per year that seems negligible. How is this comparable to apartheid at all? Also I would hardly call 10 people being killed a year en mass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks?wpr...

The linked article quotes 54-74 white farmer murders _annually_. Even at two white farmers per farm in South Africa that implies a murder rate at least 2x above the national average with large enough total counts to be significant.

I'd also wager a guess that most South African farmers are not white (they own 70% of farm land mass, but with no real evidence I'd imagine the farms are on average much larger than what was left for the locals), which would push that 2x stat much higher.

Edit: On the other hand, I do think it would be interesting to compare the rate to farms of similar sizes and different races, should that data exist somewhere. With murder rates 2-~20x above average I wouldn't be totally surprised if the common factor were just extra wealth or something.

>I'd also wager a guess that most South African farmers are not white

Given the demographics, not an unfair guess, albeit a lazy one. No, not even close.

Land reform is a controversial topic in my country so I'm just going to TL;DR the past 5 decades and provide some links[0][1] that you are going to have to be very sceptical about (given the controversial nature of the debate).

- We have one of, if not the, highest wealth gaps in the world as a direct result of Apartheid

- Unsurprisingly, land ownership is rare

- Ergo, most of the land is owned by the wealthy class, who are the white minority.

- I am not offering an opinion on the racial aspect here, violent crime affects all South Africans equally

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_South_Africa

[1]: https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201802/...

You are somewhat correct. Official statistics on murders broken down by race and land ownership are difficult to find so it makes having a conversation on the topic difficult. The statistics that are available on white farm murders indicate that their murder rate is within the average for for rural/farm areas. Infact the murder rate of black men in rural areas is even higher then white farmers.

Here are additional sources if you or anyone else would like to know more on the topic;

https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/factsheets/factsheet-sta...

https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/are-sa-whites-re...

https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/spotchecks/claims-about-...

https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/blog/analysis-why-calcul...

For comparison, over a period of 86 years in the US, 4,743 people were lynched (1,297 white, 3,446 black). About 55 per year.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynching...

These lynchings were really grisly. People would gather around, they would carve up the body and take organs as trinkets. There were also mass attacks on black people, like in Tuscon.

Here in South Africa we do have lots of violent killings, but white farmers aren't killed at a greater than national average level. In fact the highest murder rate is among cape coloureds in the cape flats.

This is clearly false, the above comment or clearly demonstrated a far above average death rate of vulnerable minorities in SA

So if I'm getting it correctly, that's roughly 0.44 deaths per 1M capita per year in the US, and 1.1 comparable deaths per 1M capita per year in South Africa? Well, then it seems at least comparable to US lynchings, if not slightly higher. (Your link sadly doesn't provide distribution in time so I have to calculate with average population in that period.)

How bad is it for them really? I read some stories but it seems the vast majority want to continue living in South Africa.

The crime is bad in South Africa, yes, but it's not the worst in the world. Same with the corruption. One good thing South Africa has going for it is that the media and judiciary are stil independent, and criticising the government is seen as a public duty. South Africa also has a higher GDP per capita than Ukraine. Yes, it is one of the most unequal countries in the world, but the rather cynical consequence of that is that if you're in the middle class, your life is on par with that of a middle-class American.

The country has the highest rape rate in the world and Cape Town is the murder capital of the world

This statment is factually incorrect and is a common alt-right talking point that is repeated on the internet with little factual basis in reality.

There are a few reasons for this;

* Different definitions of rape across countries and time

* Rape offences are counted differently

* An echo-chamber effect - lazy journalism

* Under-reporting rates are unknown and are often extrapolated by Statistics South Africa

You can find out more at this report created by AfricaCheck - a non-partisan media and statistics watchdo;

https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/why-its-wrong-ca...

It seems like sexual violence in SA is very high, I don't see how you can claim otherwise after reading the Wikipedia entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Afric...

You are correct, violence and sexual violence are a big issue in South Africa. By no means was I trying to say that it isn’t but there’s a big difference between being a “rape capital” and having high rates of sexual violence.

The term “rape/murder capital of the world” is often perpetrated and encouraged by neo-nazi pundits to stoke “white fear” with miss representations of the facts. This is why it’s important to understand the nuances and context of these statistics inorder to avoid falling into the dogmatic conversations.

You could counter this argument by saying that to minimize the problem is anti feminist. The term "rape capital" indeed sounds hyperbolic but maybe it will help mobilize the people in charge there to do something about it.

Thanks, will read it.

On the other note, please refrain from such lame attempts at "guilty by association" tactic. No need to drag your local boogie man into international discussion.

Apologies I didn’t mean to paint you as such. I went ahead and edited my original post to be less aggressive.

I just wanted to point out that this is a frequent talking point peddled by American neo-nazies that is frustratingly repeated on the internet with little honest interrogation.

Unfortunately the level of inequality plays a role here. If you’re happy rolling in affluent areas the “real” level of risk you’re exposed to is much lower.

Even in affluent areas, nobody stops at red lights at night.

Criminals might shoot you in the head just to steal the vehicle.

Does that sound like a "much lower" level of risk?

This happened to me at red light in Claremont (a Cape Town suburb.) Stopped at a red light at night and was ambushed by a guy wielding a crowbar. Hit the gas just in time and went straight through the light without checking for traffic.

It seems to me like this whole issue became political. Progressive left: SA crime rates aren't that bad, Whites have it good there. They are privileged. Conservative right: SA is collapsing into a mayhem of corruption, rape and murders. As usual we are all mostly captives of our world views and opinions and talk past each other. I am starting to see myself more and more in the political center because of these biases on both sides.

"Both sides" is not a particularly good cognitive tool, in my experience. They are mostly illusory sides anyway, there are as many sides as there are people. I've personally even been accused of having "inconsistent political views" at times, as if it was a cardinal sin.

Have you heard of something called "luxury belief" by any chance? seems fashionable these days to spout obvious nonsense.

> there are as many sides as there are people.

I think you are mistaken, many people completely align themselves with their ideology and the political camp they belong to. It's becoming very uncommon to voice a different opinion that is contrary to the "tribe" you belong to. Try saying something good that Trump has done (could be anything, surely there must be something) to democrats and tell me how it went.

This is correct. I am in an affluent area in South Africa, and my day to day is pretty much as similar to a European or US lifestyle that you can get.

I do not live in a security estate and I have never in my life been exposed to crime.

This does not mean SA crime stories are untrue, but I think it's important to maintain perspective here.

In Europe you don't have to be affluent to live relatively safely. And murder rates in SA are around 8 times higher than in the U.S, you could make the same claim that most people killed in the U.S are gang related. It's still 8 times worse in SA and I really doubt the middle class is 100% unaffected by this. Yes the extremely rich maybe do not care, not everyone is very rich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

I am in an upper middle class neighborhood myself. I didn't say crime doesn't exist in SA, nor did I say that the middle class is 100% unaffected. However - using the murder rate alone is misleading. I don't worry about crime but we do have an alarm system just in case. In areas closer to crime hot spots, the community watches and private security often do a good job keeping the riff raff away.

This is my story too.

I doubt you can completely insulate yourself from the environment though. Criminals at some point start targeting the rich with all kinds of methods, "protection" payments (extortion) etc. Or what do you do if someone points a gun to your head to rob your car? Are you expected to drive everywhere with body guards?

Where is this? I mean.. crime exists for sure, but I doubt most people even in JHB are that paranoid.

If you just keep out of dodgy areas, you're pretty safe.

SA still feels super chill and safe compared to say Brazil or Mexico.

Murder rate is higher than in Brazil actually and much higher than in Mexico https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-ra....

But that's besides the point... you would never go into those places (i.e black townships) at night. That's when the murders happen. Lots of stabbings etc at shabeens. I assume that in Brazil and Mexico you have a high chance of being mugged on the street and such.

The point is that real risk is unevenly spread to quoting a stat like that is meaningless

Where in SA do you live? I am Cape Town. None of this happens.

Durban, it’s chilled.

Recent riots don’t count :P

Some commenters are exaggerating. Nearly all of the crime is centered in the poor areas. If you are affluent your risk is minimal.

So all the commenters are affluent? E.g surfing HackerNews = has enough money for body guards?

I want to continue living here but it is quite scary sometimes, we have a lot of crime. But mostly we live quite normally, I think it would remind you of the USA in a lot of ways.

Typically people think they are a citizen of their countries even long after the writing was on the wall

This is right wing propaganda. I am South African if you want to know.

If Zimbabwe's Land Seizure Era was happening right now, it would have be called nazi propaganda too

That's not true, because it wasn't called that when it happened. There was global outrage in fact.

My comment is about what would happen today, in the very different political and ideological climate. The word decolonization would be dropped quite a few times

Note that Zimbabwe is still under US/Western sanctions which started quite a while ago.

Well I hope it would correctly be called the cynical capture of farms by a few connected elites and not a real redistribution of wealth.

Your comment makes no sense. There is no white genocide. It is propaganda from the right wing. I don't know what else to tell you. Other than stop being a ring winger?

Ever considered the possibility of other commenters not being from USA and not participating in your bipolar discourse?

What the hell are you talking about? My info is first hand.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com