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Comment by legitster | Hacker News Reader

A friend of mine is a manager at a Safeway. He says a typical store might lose six figures worth of product in a year. In a bad neighborhood it's not uncommon to lose over a million dollars a year.

They hire security personnel, but people figure out that a) even when security catches you, they are not allowed to restrain you and b) the police do not respond to shoplifters (in certain jurisdictions they are not allowed to.

The stores are responsible for the cost of missing inventory - they credit it back to the manufacturers. Stores already run tight margins, so this cost ends up getting paid by reduced headcount at stores (except for security, if it's bad enough) and directly in prices.

And this is in the grocery space, where there's very little secondary market for the stolen goods!

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> In a bad neighborhood it's not uncommon to lose over a million dollars a year.

Then the store closes, then you get a food desert.

Followed by a smug article decrying the entire situation from some smug blogger.

Not usually the entire situation - usually just lamenting greedy corporate fatcats rather than the literal inability to maintain a business based on the margins, volume, and shrinkage.

Why don’t these greedy wealth hoarders simply run their business at a loss? Are profits really everything to these fatcats? /s

Why are they not allowed to restrain a shoplifter? In Germany, that's covered by the "anyone's" right: if you see someone commit a crime, you can detain/restrain them until the police arrives. Some restrictions apply, like for example having to watch the crime yourself etc but for shop security staff it's enough rights

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festnahme#Jedermann-Festnahme

They're allowed in a legal sense, but the store often orders security not to physically intervene because of the potential legal liability if either party is injured.

It's not necessarily that they can't legally do so, but it's against the policy of every single store. If you do so as an employee, you will most likely get fired. No amount of merchandise is worth risking an employees life. Healthcare is a mess over here, but we do generally have that part right.

Restraining a shoplifter could lead to liability issues for the employer. For example, if the shoplifter injures the employee, there's a workplace injury that goes on the OSHA record, you have an employee who is out for some amount of time, it could increase insurance rates, and it could lead to the employee getting shot if the shoplifter were particularly violent.

Additionally, if the shoplifter gets injured, they may sue the store for the injury they sustained.

Most of the US does allow a citizens arrest to be performed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest

Who's gonna detain some meth head with knife for minimum wage and risk getting killed for poverty wages?

Honestly a lot of security guards would have fun subduing a guy like this (as heroically as possible), and that's why the stores have policies against it.

There’s zero incentive for anyone to do so. Best case scenario they get a pat on the back. Worst case scenario they get killed or permanently injured/disabled. There’s no reason to put your life on the line for a corporation that will put nothing on the line for you.

In the US, we generally have "Shopkeeper's privilege", which lets shopkeepers detain a person reasonably suspected of shoplifting while an investigation happens. Usually that involves just calling the police, or taking their picture and telling them they're banned for life, and then letting them go.

I think GP knows shopkeeper's privilege exists and is asking why stores often don't let their employees use it.

I think they know it exists in their legal tradition in Germany, but not necessarily that there was an analog in the US.

Exactly, I didn't know it's also legal in the US. Even more so confuses me - why hire security at all, if they aren't doing their job?

In Germany, you'd fire the security if they wouldn't go after thieves. Also, there are no liability problems... But then, people with guns or knifes are very rare.

I noticed my local Home Depot has done away with the security tag scanners at the front of the store, apparently in favor of a cluster of new cameras above all the exits. I wonder if we're headed for just having an AI watch everyone all the time in the store like the automatic-purchase grocery stores Amazon was setting up. Either that or they discovered that it was better for their bottom line to put real security around the power tools than bust people for stealing trivial things.

Ultimately high value things will get secured behind a clerk where you take a picture card of what you want to them.

Stores will use cameras and AI to build a comprehensive case against someone or group and then notify the police. That will be enough for a warrant etc...

Probably a startup or two in this space. I am sure home depot or CVS will invest in your series A.

Interestingly I was in Best Buy and this is what they’ve done.

From a month ago, they're working on some new methods where power tools won't work until they're activated at the register.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28035458

Eventually all stores are going to require a membership or deposit before letting you enter, like Costco.

I mean, you can just run into a Costco, grab something, and run out. No one can stop you.

In Costco's favor, they don't have a lot of valuable things that you can just walk with that aren't just a cardboard voucher.

Costco sells jewelry and laptops.

Yes, but are they where people can just pick them up, or are they in locked cabinets?

Some goods serve as an alternative currency, like bottles of Tide laundry detergent:

https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/...

My wife introduced me to the world of underground baby formula. It's frankly shocking how many people she knows who make money off of it (either shoplifting, Medicaid fraud, or as a way of converting WIC into cash).

I would love to hear more about this, particularly the Medicaid fraud angle.

- get baby diagnosed with formula allergy

- get Medicaid to pay for supply of $30-40/can hypoallergenic formula

- sell hypoallergenic formula for $0.90 on the dollar

- pocket cash

Slightly adjacent, fighting credit card disputes feels the same way. A company can prove without a doubt that it's a legitimate charge, only to have the case go to pre-arbitration; which in many cases is too costly to fight without certainty of winning.

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