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"Maybe if the infrastructure people were involved in development discussion earlier, they'd be able to raise their hands and say: wait a minute, you're going to blow up our logs."

"Maybe if you invited the operations people earlier, they'd have some ownership in the product."

Awww... You like each other but none of you dare to make the first move :D

Whole thread reads like bunch of guys shouting at each other "but but ... I know better!".

IMO this is main topic of the thread and of the article.

There are groups of people who instead of spending time to figure out how to work together and understand what other side has to say, they just throw shit over the fence.

Maybe some could start by reading points at least couple of times and try to understand instead of trying to write personal experiences as fast as they can in reply to other comment that hurts their ego.

The gap is a leadership problem, someone is accountable for all the "shipping". It's a made by divide and conquer strategies (more "abstraction" at higher level).

But keep blaming the war on peons.

It does not work in healthy companies.

Maybe it works if you assume all employees want to do bare minimum and don't get blame for what was not delivered.

What I see most of the time is that people want to deliver, people want to be valued by their work.

Of course I am cynical as the next guy from me in terms of "getting on high horse" but there is a lot of people who want to do their job and want to do it well.

Playing divide and conquer, playing non-existing scare deadlines is going to work once or twice and any smart employee will leave after that kind of crap. Other option is you are going to get smart employees who cannot afford to leave, but because of that crap they will just stop giving any fuck.

I sign up in reality into "self fulfilling prophecy employee", when you treat your employees or other people with expectation that they are thieves - in the end they will steal from you.

If you treat your employees as if they suck - they will suck.

Of course there are bad apples but if one goes the road that everyone want's to rob him, he will get robbed.

Ops/Infra teams don't usually start software projects and not aware that there is a project for them to offer their help with.

My experience has been that they can be very accomodating and supportive if you do talk to tham.

Yeah, all those devs are just sitting there at their desks clacking away on their novels.

There is always a project for them to offer help with, since the business will not suffer devs to be idle.

So instead of devs inviting ops people to the meeting they want ops people at, you are saying ops people should go up to devs while they are working and offer to help, even when they aren't needed?

No, that's not smart.

Help offered, but still radio silence.

Anyways, Ops have their own responsibilities and none of the core ones are centered on devs.

> Awww... You like each other but none of you dare to make the first move :D

Only if you ignore reality. If you hold a meeting and don't tell me about it, how can I attend? Both sides want the ops people involved. Maybe the one having the meeting should invite them.

> And I thank god both my app developers and operations people aren't assholes like you.

Uhh... can we chill with the personal insults a bit?

Cause the whole article reads like "developers are whiny assholes who don't know shit about computers". And yes, it starts with an attack and ends with an attack too.

1. It's not operations problem for sure, but I certainly don't bash people for not knowing things I am the expert of.

2. Fine

3. The OP's saying he doesn't want to know!

4. Well, writing applications is sitting atop a stack of technologies more and more abstract. A developer not knowing what happens in an IP packet is the same as an infrastructure guy not knowing what happens in an NP junction.

> A developer not knowing what happens in an IP packet

I don't care if devs understand IP packets, TCP congestion control algorithms, or anything similarly low-level. If they do, that's awesome, but it's not expected. I do expect them to have a basic understanding of expected latencies for intra-DC vs. internet, why running Flask in production isn't a good idea, and if they're really sharp, an inkling of how Kubernetes networking works.

I do. Why should devs not understand the environment in which they are developing? If they don't understand the concepts then they're not developers.

Why do we call these people "software engineers" if they're not engineers. There is endless documentation, there is all the resources needed. Allowing devs not to know what they're doing is a complete failure of anything approaching professionalism.

I think I understand your sentiment, but what's wrong with flask??

i assume the poster means running flask in production without something like nginx in front to serve as the webserver.

the flask build in webserver is not production grade software in my opinion.

It is also the opinion of the people who wrote the built-in webserver. If you try to run it in production mode, it'll emits this warning on startup:

> WARNING: This is a development server. Do not use it in a production deployment. > Use a production WSGI server instead.

I don't expect junior devs to have a sense for what is production-grade and what is not, but if they try to ship software that explicitly warns against being used in production, you've got a real liability on your hands.

> Cause the whole article reads like "developers are whiny assholes who don't know shit about computers". And yes, it starts with an attack and ends with an attack too.

There is no attack in the text. There is a complaint that issues presented to operations often lack the basic level of detail and due diligence that they should have. You are free to disagree with the author's expected level of due diligence on issues; I think you'd be wrong to, but you can. However, it isn't an attack.

You perceive a non-attack as an attack, and respond with an explicit attack and name-calling. That actually makes you the aggressor.

Hmm, who is the asshole here?

It read more like "these developers are asking poorly formed, difficult to answer questions", and frankly reminded me of a LOT of r/CodingHelp problems I've seen lately. Aside from that the author seems to repeatedly have empathy and admiration for developers but thinks that there is a systematic disfunction. There is definitely a little "old man shouts at clouds" too, but at least to me this article read as a legitimate discussion of some pain points, certainly not a hit piece.

Hmm, it sounds like the opposite to me. I find it really hard to read because of the constant ‘devs are stupid’ comments.

There is a legitimate point buried there, but I just kept seeing red reading it.

There is an organizational gap. It's mostly everywhere, and why only DevOps can bridge that gap. It's caused by missing technical leadership.

So anything said before that happens, and it'll happen for you partly especially at first, is only going to enrage.