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Comment by lrvick | Hacker News Reader

When I was frequently using things like this on coworkers in red teaming (back when being in an office was a thing) putting my own desktop in a steel cage with a good lock proved effective against retaliation.

Then we moved on to attacking the firmware in each others keyboards.

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Since this has generated some discussion on locks and picking, there's been some interesting developments on "unpickable locks" that sidestep the tolerance problem by decoupling setting the pins from testing them. I.e. pins are tested all at once after they are physically decoupled from the key & keyway, eliminating state space reduction attacks (aka picking one pin at a time) leaving only brute force.

One such effort features locks made by Stuff Made Here sent to Lock Picking Lawyer. According to LPL the locks are theoretically sound and he did not attempt to pick them, but these particular implementations had a couple (easily fixable) bypasses. Made for interesting videos on both sides:

Stuff Made Here describes the design in detail: TWO Unpickable (?) Locks for Lock Picking Lawyer! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2NY29iQdI

Lock Picking Lawyer reviews them and performs some bypasses: [1299] Unpickable Locks From Stuff Made Here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecy1FBdCRbQ

Whelp it seems I recalled incorrectly this time, because LPL did pick the second one open, via a weakness in the design that he believes can be patched. I don't think my sentiment was totally off base, but clearly my statement about not being picked was factually incorrect.

Thanks for sharing, fascinating stuff.

>putting my own desktop in a steel cage with a good lock proved effective against retaliation.

>Then we moved on to attacking the firmware in each others keyboards.

In what world is hacking keyboard firmware easier than lockpicking?

I once saw a PC security case where instead of the lock cylinder retracting a bolt, it turned a screw thread and opened the case by about half a millimeter. It took the guy unlocking it a good fifty turns to get the PC out of it.

And there were two - one on each side. What's more, it was a tubular lock, so if you were single-pin picking you'd have to pick it 5 times per rotation.

Nothing that would stand up to a battery powered angle grinder, of course.

I don't know anyone that would SPP a tubular lock in the field.

$40 for tools designed to pick all pins at once and make a "key" with some quick impressioning motions.

Some do have spool pins. In those cases you will need manual fiddling to pick it once then you have a key to keep spinning.

Still, sounds like an interesting design. Link?

I was under the impression impressioning relied on all the lock's springs and driver pins being identical, and that better tubular locks avoided that?

I looked for a picture of the case but couldn't find one. I was in that college CAD lab... quite a long time ago.

Tubular locks are trivial to pick and the lock turning the screw mentioned above would be just as simple with a tubular pick than with the original key.

In a world where I am the one choosing the locks.

I taught everyone else involved to lockpick in the first place and chose locks well beyond any of our skill levels to pick.

It's a gentleman's sport.

In a world where keyboards are open source programmable devices: https://qmk.fm/

In the world where one is a firmware exploit developer and don't know how to pick locks...?

We were all capable of both and had to plan accordingly.

If you don't know how to pick a lock it's a lot easier. I assume I could learn but I know a lot more about firmware than barrels.

and what's this site we are on's name again ?

Harder to spot visibly?

software problem, not a hardware problem. :)

We just broke the locks on the cages with a screwdriver. Locks only keep honest people honest.

I don't expect good locks to keep people out. I expect good locks to be tamper evident so I know I can't trust my system.

Unfortunately, there aren't really all that many "good locks" on the market. The Lock Picking Lawyer on YouTube[1] has pretty much destroyed my faith in the modern lockmaking industry.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer/videos

He can defeat just about anything, but he’s also exceptionally skilled. As a consumer of locks, I expect them to be defeatable by a skilled lockpicker. But I don’t expect them to be defeatable by a bic pen or by reaching in the keyhole with an oddly shaped wire to move the locking paul.

You can buy locks that don’t have easy bypasses, and can’t be easily drilled, and can’t be picked by beginners.

You can also buy locks that can't be picked by people like me who have been at it 20 years.

To keep people like me out for a while buy a Medeco. Pins not only need to be at the right height, but also the right rotation. They are a real pain in the ass to pick. I don't even know any locksmiths that can pick them. Good security for the money.

Bosnian Bill and LPL... Okay they can pick them, but they are like the 0.0001% in skill.

Still even then pay an extra $100 for really high quality disk detainer lock like a Protec 2 and you will keep even them out for quite a while.

That is what I use on my luggage. TSA has to call me to unlock them with my consent every time. The way I like it. Great tip I picked up from Deviant Ollam.

> TSA has to call me to unlock them with my consent every time.

No - no they don’t.

Anything locked with a non-TSA compliant lock is fair game for the bolt cutters, and frankly probably draws a lot of extra attention.

All you’re doing is asking for extra screening…

[1] https://www.tsa.gov/blog/2014/02/18/tsa-travel-tips-tuesday-...

The part you're missing is : firearm means they shouldn't (legally can't) try to open the case without you.

Not if you have a firearm in your luggage.

Out of the brands you've mentioned, any particular models of locks?

I'm surprised TSA doesn't just cut it off, TBH.

Also this; especially after watching this happen to DeviantOllam

Which locks don't have easy bypasses?

I've been wondering the most sophisticated/effective/secure locks regular consumers have access to.

In other words, which locks does the Lock Picking Lawyer himself use in his house to protect his family?

He has specifically mentioned BiLock as one he would consider. As another comment in this thread mentioned, Mendeco is also well regarded.

I have hundreds of locks and lock bypass tools. I make sure to pay for ones that are not quickly defeated when it counts.

LPL covers most locks in the wild which are bad, but locks like the Protec2 are quite strong and while it is implied one person in the world can beat it with custom tools (huxleypig)... even then not quickly.

And the best features are (proudly) locked behind patents, so if you need a great lock in a form factor they don't make, oh well.

Some of the best locks are very very hard to buy as well and still protected with weird export controls held over from the encryption export days.

I frequently use FF-L-2740 spec locks, which is the spec locks need to hit for use in classified government work, military contractors etc. They are very good locks I can't begin to defeat in any practical amount of time and don't know anyone who can. Particularly since they have timed brute force lockouts.

Problem is not a single vendor is allowed to sell locks of that spec to civilians by contract so you have to jump through lots of hoops to get them.

For most uses of a lock its job is to keep honest people out.

I have had doors kicked in, so these days I want the lock to be the weakest, not strongest, part of the door. So when it is kicked in it is a cheap lock that is destroyed not an expensive hardwood door (I like hardwood doors...)

Most locks can be picked by a child with a hair pin. I would know. I grew up as that child opening every door and safe I could to amuse myself.

If a door is broken then a lock did its job. It let you know you were broken into.

Cheaper if the lock is broken. Locks (that are broken easily) are cheaper than doors, which are not hard to break and expensive to fix

Who is going to pick a lock that is cheap and easy to break?

> Who is going to pick a lock that is cheap and easy to break?

Probably a criminal who is trying to be quiet, so they can enter your house.

Even cheaper just to leave the door unlocked, I suppose.

The purpose of a lock is to keep honest people out.

Mēh. I have dogs.

If that were literally true then a sign saying "This door is on the honour system, please don't enter" would work just as well.

> there aren't really all that many "good locks" on the market.

You can say that again.

I was once proud of myself for having thoroughly researched the market and I thought EVVA MCS was a safe bet[1].

Then someone showed me a YouTube video (published a year after I bought the locks) of someone picking it (not LPL, another YouTuber). Given the cost of EVVA MCS I was not a happy bunny.

[1] https://www.evva.com/int-en/products/mechanical-locking-syst...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8QKZNFxLw

Apparently, picked here: https://youtu.be/ai5Hf-wPXFE

but check out this one instead: https://youtu.be/sES_Hbj92BQ - ~2h to open fully (though the author of the video claims impressioning could speed up the thing; anyway, reportedly attacking the door is just easier in this case)

Guy who made the video here. The lock mechanism itself isn't one of the easiest, but also not one of the hardest to pick skill-wise. However, it does take a very long time to pick through which means that the lock is doing its job very well. Also, I have read that this lock is very resistant to destructive attack as well. So combining pick resistance with physical resistance, you have a very good lock as long as it's installed on a good door and the building has all other security measures in place (no ground level unprotected windows, etc)

Also worth noting, Bosnian Bill (a more recognized name) also attempted this lock here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLeiPmfm-2s

I have Bowley locks in my collection. Amazing quality.

Not only does it take a couple hours to pick for an expert but you have to make a custom set of tools that only work on that one particular lock.

If a lock keeps someone out for several hours it is a great lock.

Watching his channel, a beefy disc tumbler locks seem to be your best bet for keeping a bike secure.

For your home, a high security pin tumbler with security pins are fine too. It takes very high skill to defeat these.

Just because a highly skilled professional lock picker can pick a lock doesn't mean you can nor the parent's coworkers.

The lock doesn't even need to be that good. As you said, the name of the game is intrusion detection, not necessarily intrusion avoidance.

The Lock Picking Lawyer chronicled very nicely a technique for turning a KW1-keyed Kwikset core (extremely common here in the US) into something that is tamper evident. See the YouTube video linked herein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JlgKCUqzA0

This kind of thing thwarts covert attack attempts and serves as a good way to trigger an audit on the trust of the asset behind that lock.

I’m into locksport as well and would favor that kind of modification on a back door which is more likely to be targeted by thieves. Not sure I’d do it on a front door in case I put a family member actually locked themselves out and actually needed a locksmith to be able to get in.

Sure, and the application of access control devices generally requires a degree of discretion and understanding what your threat model is.

If you don't fear your front door will be clandestinely accessed, I feel it's perfectly valid not to worry about doing this to the lock there.

Not being you, that isn't my call to make.

Yeah, my threat model is common house thieves, not intelligence agencies or police.

> I don't expect good locks to keep people out. I expect good locks to be tamper evident so I know I can't trust my system.

The term for what you want is a "seal", not a lock.

Imagine someone broke the lock, but did nothing more.

You'd be driven mad trying to find what the intrusion was on your system.

Most common locks can be easily picked with a tiny bit of practice. I'm completely incompetent but I can pick any Master lock in 5 minutes or less.

Which is why you should never use Master Locks.

I am pretty decent at lockpicking but I can't pick a Medeco or better in any practical amount of time and very few in the world can.

Little bit more money vastly reduces your attack surface.

> Little bit more money

Aren't medeco padlocks like $100, whereas master lock padlocks are less than $20?

What's the value of the asset it's protecting?

I remember learning how to break master locks back in the 1980s. But I also heard they changed the mechanism after that.

I’m pretty sure they did on a number of models, but it wasn’t for the better

I went to home depot a couple years ago and bought every model of master lock they sold. Picked all of them in an afternoon.

I then taught kids to pick them.

do you mean combo locks, or key locks?

That would generally be considered "detectable intrusion" though.

Not if you replace it with another lock that looks similar

I think when you get home and your key doesn’t work on the lock, it might tip you off.

When I had towers or pizza boxes I pretty much never touched them once it became normal to leave them on all the time, which was as soon as they were always downloading from the internet at 3.3 kbps.

If the case was locked in a cage I wouldn’t notice until I needed to put access the tower to plug in a usb, which might not be for weeks these days.

Being in an office is definitely still a thing. Let's be real, vaccinated adults working from home is a privilege. Mostly a white upper middle class one. Always was.

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