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Comment by j8hn | Hacker News Reader

I don't have any experience with the housing issue in California, but got involved a while back trying to find pragmatic solutions in Seattle.

The situation is a mess and there is an entire "homeless industrial complex" complicating matters here, rife with fraud, misspending and cronyism.

Every year it seems like many millions of dollars more are spent on this issue but it keeps getting visibly worse.

At first I was in the "Housing First" crowd, but after my experiences I would say I more firmly believe in "Rehab First".

A local news station released a great documentary called "Seattle is Dying". It has 10 million views since released a couple of years ago. https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw

The sequel is "The Fight For the Soul of Seattle". https://youtu.be/WijoL3Hy_Bw

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>Every year it seems like many millions of dollars more are spent on this issue but it keeps getting visibly worse.

Because home prices and rents keep going up. Homelessness is an inevitable side effect of that.

Funneling money on rehab rather than providing places to actually live cant fix that. It's attacking a symptom not the cause.

However, attacking the cause (property prices/rents) would make a lot of very rich, very powerful people very angry - all backed by an army of overleveraged homeowners terrified of negative equity.

Until property owners are apoplectic with fury about declining property values I doubt the problem will stop getting worse.

Why do you favor blaming rent for homelessness instead of lack of jobs that pay well enough? Why can some people afford the rent while others can't?

If you are after a single root cause of homelessness you will be disappointed. Unless you only care to push an agenda.

> Why do you favor blaming rent for homelessness instead of lack of jobs that pay well enough?

In most countries, homelessness is concentrated in wealthy, but expensive cities e.g. London, NYC. There are plenty of well-paying jobs (even relatively unskilled ones) but high rents more than make up for it. I felt significantly more housing-secure living in a cheap area with a shitty job than in an expensive area with a good job.

If everyone is paid more but the housing supply remains limited housing prices will simply increase further.

My friend in California makes twice as much as I do on the east coast. I can afford a home and he can’t.

Supply and demand. Housing prices will only go down when there is significant excess supply.

If you want to help homelessness build more housing. Not specifically low income housing, just lots of housing. No it is not going to help the people living on the street right now, but it is the only real solution.

>Why do you favor blaming rent for homelessness instead of lack of jobs that pay well enough?

Two sides of the same coin.

>Unless you only care to push an agenda.

Some people prefer to prevaricate and show only faux concern for the homeless, I guess.

It's understandable - there are a lot of people who while they dont want to be seen to be outright hostile to the plight of the homeless, will react negatively to the idea of seeing the value of their assets decline.

The thought that there can be enough jobs that pay “well enough” is a myth. There are only so many jobs that can provide the wages needed for rent in a given city, and there are always more people that want it than have it. Of course there is no single root cause but if I had to point one out I would finger the stagnation of real wages.

Also don’t forget that you can have high unemployment and lots of available jobs at the same time if the skills doesn’t match up. It is complete rubbish and false to claim that we can train anybody to do any job.

The problem is not lack of jobs. The problems is that a larger and larger % of the population doesn’t have the skills/IQ/whatever to do those jobs. Or the cost (car etc.) of getting the job isn’t covered by the pay.

Link local minimum wage to three times median rent for a 2 bedroom apartment, then. Solve both problems! :)

(EDIT: assuming you have policy to maintain full employment…)

I've never understood why working the most entry level job should afford you a midrange 2br. Why not link minimum wage to 3x rent for an entry level apartment?

Good enough for me, but the difference isn’t huge.

Perfect! :-) Too many people forget that if you are incapable of working, the minimum wage is zero

Yup, and the problem with inadequate housing affordability means pumping money into rehab just further increases the price of housing as you need to house people in rehab, after all!

Get rid of height limits, parking minimums, single-family-only zoning, and make most housing projects zoned by-right without public comment required.

Seattle light rail was sold to the voters with one premise being upsizing the surrounding neighborhoods. Once construction began, upsizing became controversial and never happened in some neighborhoods because of gentrification fears.

Your "very rich, very powerful" comment is unfounded and a weak attempt to make it seem like a conspiracy. It's the tens of millions of basic, everyday middle-class homeowners who freak out when anything related to their home changes negatively -- lower values, higher taxes, "wrong people" moving into the neighborhood, HOA rules not followed, school system grades declining, traffic increasing, etc etc

I wonder how many homeless are unseen.

My experience with those living on the streets is that substance abuse and mental health is the main symptom of them living that lifestyle. They will be the first ones to tell you if you're willing to have a conversation with them.

What continues to amaze me is that the US completely ignore successful programs run in other countries. The US spent more $ per person on education, healthcare, homelessness etc. and get consistently worse results than countries in Europe for example. I wonder if it is a weird “US #1” kinda thing that makes it impossible to admit that the US can learn from other countries? Or is there some other explanation? Perhaps an unwillingness to actually solve those problems because of a general individualistic/selfish/not my problems mentality?

How about rehab and housing at the same time? Many people didn't become serious addicts until after they became homeless.

In regards to those living on the streets, the main cause of them being homeless is substance abuse and mental illness.

And the main reason for substance abuse is the lack of jobs and the lack of hope.

The reason that most people stay clean is the need to get up and go to work the next day.

And the reason they go to work is because it will give them a better standard of living.

Take away permanent jobs, reasonable wages, affordable housing, and many people will simply give up hope.

Is the main reason for substance abuse really lack of jobs and lack of hope?

I'm curious where you got your data from.

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