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Comment by istingray | Hacker News Reader

Super curious about Librem 5 myself, though they're currently backordered and I'm a Linux newbie. If someone has one gathering dust, email is in my profile.

My first step to switching off Apple is my laptop. I bought a System76 laptop. I also considered the Purism laptop. I'm a Linux newbie and went with System76, some explanation below. (Shipping times were also a factor in my decision)

Purism's challenge is they may be trying to solve a "2-miracles problem".

Miracle 1: open source hardware business

Miracle 2: privacy focused business

To the extent open source hw/sw SUPPORTS privacy, they're in alignment as a single miracle. But the alignment isn't perfect, it's all still so new. To put it another way, if Purism fails that doesn't affect System76 much. But if System76 fails that likely means a rough road ahead for Purism.

Those who can at all muster the courage and budget to buy Purism right now totally should. Lead the way where others cannot.

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Congrats on the System76 laptop! I'm excited for you. My advice would be to keep Pop OS in place at least until you're feeling confident. It's a good distro that you can use forever, but part of the fun of being a Linux user is freedom to explore and try things.

Do you have a community/destination to go for help if/when you need it? I would imagine you shouldn't need much unless you like to leave the beaten path, but it's always good to have some idea.

Appreciate the encouragement! I'm planning to pipe all feedback and expectations to System76 directly. I know what I bought likely isn't as good as my Mac from a look and feel standpoint. The Linux community seems incredible, and I'm looking for opportunities to pay money to do my part to push it.

I switched to System76 last year from being on a mac for about 15 years. I knew that there would be some things which would be lower quality (speakers, webcam, mic, trackpad, screen) but found a couple of things:

1/ my machine is way faster and lasts way longer; 2/ I have had really great support from System76 (esp. compared to Apple -- they helped me debug a hardware problem and then I just ordered a new card and popped it in myself); 3/ I actually don't mind the quality degradation compared to the massive improvement in my day-to-day experience.

I'm an Arch user (/fanatic -- aren't we all?), YMMV.

I highly recommend you adjust your perspective. Look for the positives not the negatives.

Isn't as easy to use as your Mac for some things, sure, but to start out thinking it isn't as good means you'll look for the things that are flawed instead of noticing the things that are amazing.

I've used Linux as a daily driver since 2016, yes there are things that would be easier if I just owned a Mac - somewhat ironically that includes Microsoft Office - but there are many things that are just amazing on Linux.

The ability to pipe audio from one program into another, or quickly create a virtual audio device that combines two get a lot of use from me on the unending stream of video calls.

The fact my home directory contains all my configs in plain test making it easy for me to have the same custom setup across 3 different computers (and all nicely versioned in git).

How about the fact that while I love a keyboard centric tiling window manager (i3wm) when my wife or son log in they get a KDE or Gnome desktop that is as familiar to them as their existing Window's computers.

Good framing! I'll look for what's better not what's missing: - I love that the laptop is user upgradable for RAM and drives. - I love that I'm supporting a positive open hardware/software future

edit: just realized I can play Steam games natively! And also have a built in SD card slot.

Also have a look at the unixporn subreddit. You'll find a lot of inspiration for beautiful and functional desktops that will consume all your time if you're not careful. But in a fun way.

> I know what I bought likely isn't as good as my Mac.

It's probably moreso the hardware that will bug you, not the software - Linux on System76 machines is probably the closest to "it actually just works" that I've seen and it's super cool, but at the end of the day it's still rebranded Clevo shells.

I like their desktop towers and I remain hopeful they can do their own laptop one day.

Appreciate the advice on this. Wonder if there's any hardware extras I can purchase that will ease the pain. Skins, adapters, dongles etc.

> but part of the fun of being a Linux user is freedom to explore and try things [from poster freedomben]

Make yourself a few virtual machines for that, initially...

Then try loading systems on the laptop from a USB Mass Storage Device (meaning, the non destructive way, without writing to the disk).

"Backordered" is something of an understatement. I placed my order in February 2018 and still haven't received it.

Yeah I had no issues with shipping my Librem 15 laptop, it was only a few weeks. The phone however I opted for the Evergreen release of the Librem 5 hoping to get something a little more polished. I’ve been waiting since summer 2019. It seems they’ve been having issues with manufacturing, possibly due to small order sizes plus semiconductor shortages plus COVID.

I think the reason system76 has less issues is that it isn’t custom silicon. I’m not sure about Pine but perhaps it’s the same case?

The Librem 15 is a decent laptop and is very serviceable / easy to repair but for the price it’s definitely not as good as the build quality of a Dell XPS for example.

I really like the idea of a quality open source phone (hardware and software) that isn’t sold by surveillance capitalists, which is why I support them but I still don’t know if I’ll use it as a daily driver.

Oh wow! I had no idea. That's wild. Check out System76 for other Linux-first options.

Of the two people I know who ordered one, 0 have been delivered.

I'm well into worried this is another eve laptop / failed to deliver a real product situation.

So even if they are not sold out, Purism is not getting any money from me until I hear of delivered products to people I know.

I am still waiting on my Librem 5 phone (since April 2020). However, I've had my Librem 15 laptop (same order date) since June 2020. They are an actual existing company that has shipped a lot of real actual laptops to people. It sucks that they're taking so long to deliver the Librem 5 phone.

That's good to hear, I don't know anyone who ordered the laptop so it's something to hear people online are receiving their products.

Mines being shipped now, it should arrive early next week!

...though I guess I am not someone you know.

Good to hear I hope it arrives soon! One of the people I know ordered later, and one backed it very early and is still waiting.

I am just at the mercy of FedEx at this point......

My friend received his, so it's not exactly pure vaporware.

But it's also not usable enough to be his daily driver either AIUI.

I have fairly minimal needs, mostly basic mapping, calls, a Matrix client, and a web browser. I know that's pretty basic, even for ~2011.

That said, I'm using (and have been using) my Community Edition Pinephone as a daily driver for a couple weeks now. It's not impossible, it just varies based on what ones individual needs actually are :)

I would suggest getting Pinephone is you want to dip your toes in the water. They are much cheaper, and generally take about a month to get from pine64 directly.

How are Purism and System76 related?

They both provide a means of running a user-first and privacy-first operating system on a laptop without supporting surveillance capitalists.

You can’t really buy a Dell or a MacBook, install Debian or some other *nix OS and make the same claim.

What I meant was: Why would System76 failing affect Purism (negatively)? I understand that there's some correlation as they're both targeting a similar audience, but it doesn't seem to me like they depend too much on one another.

Appreciate the clarification. I didn't know about the bootwork example, I meant reliant more generally.

System76 is one of the few Linux-first hardware companies. Dell and Lenovo do this but as an aside. System76 is 100% Linux.

If there were an entire ecosystem of Linux-first open hardware developers, Purism could simply provide a few hardware and software tweaks (ie hw switches for wifi) for enhanced privacy.

The problem is Purism is forced to bear the weight of being one of the few open hw/sw vendors AND all the additional anti-surveillance pieces too.

Curious if this explanation helped you.

It did. Thanks.

Purism is downstream to some of System76's coreboot work iirc

The difference is, most of System76’s laptops are barebones models from Clevo, whereas Purism designs its own laptops.

As a new System76 customer, I like their stepwise approach. It tells me they're thinking long term and not rushing. That's what I want to support is a longterm open hardware+software industry.

My understanding is they've started selling their own desktop models after selling white-labeled machines in the past. And that with laptops they are quite involved in the design process and are inching towards selling their own custom laptops.

If Purism fails it will likely be because they did too much from scratch. Taking on hardware and software all at once is a recipe for disaster. It's super expensive.

Keep in mind that both Purism and System76 still use proprietary CPUs (at least) so their machines are not completely open. There is a backdoor in every Intel and AMD chip that has full control over your computer. If you want 100% open hardware, there is https://www.raptorcs.com/.

I believe both these companies go to lengths to disable Intel ME & co (where possible). Raptor is a cool option if you have the money and want a desktop approach, but if you're after a laptop you're ultimately playing the game of "how much can I deal with binary blobs and proprietary bits".

Hell, for Purism's laptops it's not uncommon for people to shove in a different wifi card to get modern speeds - the card they use is used for being able to run with only open source drivers, which are old at this point.

More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Commer....

Yes… the wireless card on the Librem 15 has given me some grief due to sticky roaming. I’ll have to look into this!

Good to know about this, had not heard of Raptor Computing Systems.

The complete open hardware model seems to require DIY chip fabrication at some level as a backstop. Will look for more opportunities to encourage this.

I wonder if System76 has considered Raptor processors for their desktops. What is their roadmap towards more open hardware? Here goes my first recommendation to their customer support. I would consider a mini-desktop with Talos by System76 even though I'm primarily a laptop user.

Intel ME is apparently disabled and not connected to the network interface in the Librem 13/15 if I remember correctly.

Disabled and neutralized [0], but there are still some blobs in it [1].

[0] https://puri.sm/projects/coreboot/

[1] https://puri.sm/learn/software-freedom-in-perspective/

You can buy a Dell with Ubuntu already installed...

There is one Dell laptop you can buy with Ubuntu: Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition [1]

Linux is a side project for Dell at best.

[1] https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... edit to add dell link

Several of their business PCs support linux. https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem...

I don't even see that XPS available on dell.com anymore.

Search engines also seem to have trouble finding it. It turns up only when I enter "dell xps 13 developer edition": https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...

No longer available and was only ever limited distribution AFAIK. Also, their hardware has a habit of dying suddenly. For non-free vendors I recommend replacing Windows on current-era Lenovo laptop hardware, AFAIK so far everything just works out of the box.

...You can order it right now on their site. Admittedly, it takes digging through their similar but old listings.

https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...

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