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> Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut.

This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men. Gatherings of black men were (and are) seen as suspicious or "gang-related", but if there's a large gathering of black men at a barbershop, they're all just there to get a haircut, and everyone needs a haircut.

It's not expected of people to get a haircut.

> This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men

Originally, it may have been a kinda-sorta-secret, but given the prominent role that barbershop-as-Black-social-nexus has played in popular media portrayals of Black American communities targeting general (not just Black) audiences for the last several decades, that's hardly the case any more.

I think the ignorance in these comments say otherwise...

There were a couple of movies around this trope. Black TV also has this trope (kind of like how other comedies might insert a bar(tender) scene).

People are unaware of lots of things. Ask, who are your two senators. You'd be surprised in today's day and age of constant media barrage, but many people can't answer.

> There were a couple of movies around this trope.

It’s even referenced in a Disney (Pixar Animation Studios) film (Soul, where the main character’s history of arms-length interactions in that context as a violation of social norms is called out.)

Oh, I think there is still some ignorance, I just don't think what remains is really much attributable to the “sort of on purpose” concealment by the community as to disinterest in the lifestyle of other subcultures by people outside.

It's not a "secret" hangout, it's a safe hangout that has a racist-acceptable justification so it won't get raided by the police for no good reason.

> This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men.

This isn't specific to blacks. I've seen it first hand in every culture that has barber shops. Which is every culture.

The key ingredient is that the barbers are members of their community and there's work culture (or lack of work culture depending on the individual) that provides enough free time to actually congregate.

Exactly.

And when you have your special barber, he would cut your hair even when you have no money. That's another assumption a lot of non-black peoples do not know.

I'm black African. I went to live in Rome (Italy) and went 3 times in a "normal" barber shop and the Italians were just doing the haircuts as it is required by their jobs and talking about moundane things. I joined the conversation but ... They are professional. They don't have time to talk about personal problem and stuff. This is not the place.

I switched to a black barbershop and, just near Termini train station. Man, the first day I was there the barber told me and asked me personal stuff and it wasn't "unprofessional" in my view.

We bonded. And now he even call me to ask me how if a problem I have told him previously is solved yet, he has a plumber who can help me fix things and stuff...

So in our culture barbers are well respected.

Didn't barbers inherit their pole symbol from their origins as the default surgeon before professional medicine was a thing?

Yes. Being good with a straight razor meant more than just a neat shave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole

This was addressed in the tv-show "New Amsterdam". The medical director of the New Amsterdam Public Hospital identified that barbershops are indeed community centers, after an almost fatal event where a black man almost died playing basketball.

The director figured that it is far more likely that men could get their heart checked if they didn't have to go out of their way to get to a hospital, and that was the right place to do it. He trained the main barber there on how to use the machine because he understood how much he cared about his friends, acquaintances, and the community he had fostered. IIRC he did that in many other barber shops in the area.

Funny enough, this approach also saves a lot of money because health problems can be identified faster than otherwise.

Has nobody seen Luke Cage? The entire plot revolves around a Harlem barbershop.

No need to criticize people for not having seen it, but yes, good example. Also features into Coming to America and its sequel.

I wasn't criticizing. Just letting people who have not know they're missing out!

This has reminded me of the classic sitcom Desmond's, set in a Guyanese barbershop in South London, with exactly that dynamic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond%27s

Although Desmond's wife was usually around, and he had a white apprentice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxgmRB78GxQ

> Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are trying to solve: how can you have a normal community in US culture?

Indeed, in sociology this building of community is typically called the 'third place' [0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Oh wow, this is a great Wiki article -- thank you for sharing!

Do HN folks have a "third place" they go to?

Someone in my town (~100,000 people, somewhere on the East Coast) created a "nerd space" where you could rent video game consoles, PC/Macs with pro software, some rudimentary woodworking equipment, a board game/CCG store, and generally hang out. I thought it would become my third place, and for a while it was. I met some awesome people, briefly collaborated on a game that went nowhere, taught some classes, attended trivia nights, etc. It expanded into more buildings and felt like it could become a bedrock of the town. Then it slowly started to contract. I think the only thing left is the donut shop with a small board game collection. The original buildings were demolished in favor of apartments. My guess is they couldn't pay the skyrocketing rent, and couldn't find a good spot in town where people could just sit and theoretically do whatever they wanted. Maybe a library less dependent on profit would make for a better venue?

The comment section

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of HN'er count a coffee shop or something as their "third place." For me, the cafe at the Barnes & Noble near my apartment is basically my "third place". Well... more like "second place" right now due to pandemic induced WFH status, but you get the idea.

Maybe not anymore, but the public library comes to mind from my youth. Kids would hang out there, and they had computers that you could play some games on. Runescape was very popular there.

Growing up that was always my friendly local game store.

Option 3 is actually the plot of an episode of the medical drama series "New Amsterdam". The main character of the show is the director of a fiction NYC public hospital. In episode 4 of season 2 he tries to encourage black men to get medical checkups. He choses to teach the barbers how to take blood pressure and prescribe some basic meds. The episode centers around the mistrust that black people in the US have of public healthcare, and how barbers are a natural social center for that community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)...

Once upon a time, some barbers had dual jobs: cutting hair and taking care of common medical conditions. The first modern surgeon was a barber by trade. The red and white of barber poles represent blood and bandages, after all.

1. Religion: Other pros:

- Highly tailored to cultural nuances. Many immigrant communities only have religion as their fallback. I cannot overstate how important this is to such communities.

- In some cases, a diverse set of people and backgrounds from different points in their life.

- Many religions instill a sense of humility.

Other cons: - By nature ripe for abuse, without checks and balances in the structure.

- A lot of work and time/financial commitment by its members.

- In practice, some of the nastiest and most egotistical people I’ve met attend churches.

You can bond with people over similar ethnic or life backgrounds without devolving into supremacy... people do this all the time around the world. Obviously, there need to be reasonable limits around the 'tribal identity' that preclude supremacist behavior, but it's certainly a valid way to build relationships and feel supported.

There's also therapy. Way more expensive than a haircut, and it's highly stigmatized especially among men. It doesn't provide community, per se, but it can help a person work through the issues that are making it hard for them to find and keep friends.

And, yeah. A barbershop is a decent stand-in.

In an ideal world there would be a professionalism gradient for mental health the same way there is for physical health. The physical health gradient starts with yourself (trying to eat healthy), passes through your friends casually assisting (participating in outdoor activities, discussing food, telling you they're staying home because they're sick), then hits easily accessible treatments (pharmacy), moves on to more difficult treatments (doctor's visit), and then finally to ultra-expensive high-risk technological approaches.

In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps straight to being treated by The System. Therapists catch a broad range of problems that don't need all their training just by virtue of being the first rung on a ladder that starts 20 feet off the ground.

>In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps straight to being treated by The System.

It's pretty wild how poorly equipped some parts of the country are to treat mental health. My younger sister (13) suffers from anxiety and depression. She says she just needs a therapist to talk to, but every time my parents have reached out to local resources covered by insurance they all want to immediately destroy her future, institutionalize her FULL-TIME in a residential program, and pump her full of drugs for the next five years. School and college prep? Forget about it.

Like, what the fuck? She just needs an affordable therapist... thankfully, I passed on some resources about sliding scale therapy and affordable options outside Florida Medicaid (Open Path Collective is run by angels, IMO). Yeah, she probably will need some medication, but the idea that, with only one major incident, a 4.0 GPA gifted student with a bright, educated future should essentially be orphaned and doped up through adulthood sends shivers down my spine.

The options covered by Medicaid are:

1. No treatment at all, because the system is overloaded, likely leading to further decline.

2. A social and mental nuclear option, certainly leading to further trauma and isolation. TBH, it's heartbreaking to me to think about how many parents have been duped into believing this is the only option (especially with affordable remote counseling being a more available option now).

Great system. We're lucky I have a well-paying software job, otherwise it's like the state wants people to suffer.

Absolutely, we've got the same problem in Canada. We waste so many resources on treating emergencies, because we can't spare a buck to help folks with minor/moderate problems. And of course, "universal healthcare" doesn't cover mental health, dental or vision -- those are privileges for folks with upper-crust jobs.

I really appreciate this comment. What I've seen in my life is that if I call it mental health, I probably still see it as disjointed as that. If I call it emotional health, it seems to open up a much broader spectrum of services. Then me calling my friend and talking about how I'm feeling, about my stress, confusion, anger, joy, excitement, dreams and fears, helps me to process some of those feelings and share them more. And it doesn't have to be a friend, it can be journaling to myself, or talking to a barber or someone on a plane or someone at a bar, or someone via online forums. It could even include the physical activity as well, as I like to define emotional = mental + physical. So going for a run or a swim or throwing a ball with a friend can provide avenues for this as well. At least for me, I find the term "emotional health" helps me see the gradient more.

In an ideal world, people would largely communicate ideas face-to-faced and keep text communication to a minimum. The average person needs to hear voices that don't originate from their own heads. We're creating entire generations of narcissists who, because they have the capability to read and have been taught that their opinions "are just as good as anyone else's" have decided that echo chambers are appropriate places to find themselves.

You might argue barbershops are better.

1. They are cheaper.

2. You get a haircut.

3. Community.

4. They are trained in the real world, and within the community they are serving.

5. The barber's incentives are aligned with yours. If they solve your problem, you're still a repeat customer. In the case of therapists and chiropractors, they are incentivized to manage your problem indefinitely or to find new problems.

It's also a giant pain in the ass to even start therapy, at least in my city

You look up all the providers who take your insurance, call around, all the ones you try are booked up 3 months out...

And all this at a time when small hurdles are enough to stop you from doing literally anything

There have to be more options than that.

A country club?

A service org like Rotary / Lion's Club?

I'm not sure what's out there, but there must options other than Jihad, Kristallnacht, or barber shop.

Freemasonry. And for a near-exclusively African-American patronage, there are Prince Hall Freemason lodges[1]. While most Masonic lodges have a "belief in a Supreme Being" requirement, lodge activities are more secular and grounded in their application.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hall_Freemasonry

thankfully I believe I am a supreme being, so that isn't an issue!

The Prince Hall lodge by my house was a COVID vaccination center for a bit

Country clubs are specifically made as exclusionary spaces for wealthy, almost always white, people.

That fits the stereotype in my head, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Just that they're bad?

No, I'm saying that black communities are disproportionately affected by poverty. Simply put, country clubs are not an option for the vast majority of Black Americans, not to mention the overt racism.

Ah got it, makes sense. I guess I was just responding to "how can you have a normal community in US culture?" in abstract, not in regards to the people in the article.

That they're not a valid option for a large percentage of the population.

That's true, but hanging out at a Black Barber shop is also not a realistic option for a large percentage of the population.

There are also public golf clubs too. The local municipal one by me is $125 a year and there are tournaments twice a month I believe

Gaming both tabletop and video abounds with groups of different varieties, commitments, sizes. The video gaming side can tend towards the superficial or toxic not as a rule but as a tendency, due to access and anonymity. But a good board gaming/RPG group is hard to beat as a third place.

Horse racing tracks.

This is such a poorly crafted argument that it's hard to imagine it's not in bad faith. You listed religion twice! The only way this is representative of any kind of "normal" culture is if you have defined it that way.

Let's think about a couple more ways that you could go about obtaining a community in the US.

leisure: clubs, cafes, live music events, bars, gyms. proximity: neighborhood, induced parent communities from child communities. functional: PTAs, HOAs, coworkers, colleagues.

etc.

I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with the exception of gyms and coworkers/colleagues to a degree. Getting your hair cut is a qualitatively different type of experience. You have to sit still while it's happening, you can't just wander off. And there's even a degree of physical intimacy involved, even if it's purely professional. Likewise, in church you have to sit still, you can't go on your phone or leave early without people judging you. I think there's a reason why fitness quasi-cults like Crossfit and Soul Cycle have emerged, because the same principle is at play, social interaction with strangers is baked into the process. Sure, there are strangers at bars, concerts, etc., but you don't really have to engage with them and can walk away or go on your phone at any time.

> I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with the exception of gyms and [...]

You mentioned gyms:

tl;dr: Karate dojos are a kind of gym with lots of community -- maybe too much!

Original post:

Gyms are an interesting one. Most are relatively anonymous, I think. But my (somewhere between first- and second- hand) experience of karate dojos was that they are very tight-knit, almost cultish (though not entirely in a bad way). People's SOs often joined, not really because they were interested in karate per-se, but because it was a way to spend more time together.

As a person in their mid-30s who is having to meet and rebuild their friend group, it’s fascinating to me how the list of places you provide almost entirely are “go with a group, don’t want to be bothered” places.

The hunt for the Third Place, especially among those that are “not 20” is very real and comparatively difficult.

I happen to have met a smallish group of people that I can start to grow as a community with that I actually want to, but this is a recent development and I’m grateful to the people that found me.

These would be comparable examples if religion included nothing but the physical building of a church/mosque/synagogue.

One word about the cons of #3, you can absolutely go to a black barbershop with no intentions of ever getting your haircut. Older black men will sometimes hang out there, or stop by through the day on the weekend just to catch up with one another.