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Comment by spookthesunset | Hacker News Reader

A year of a kids life is an eternity for them. Two is forever! You are stealing their childhood away from them to protect who, exactly? What is even the point of masking them.

Teachers have been vaccinated. Parents have been vaccinated. Kids aren’t at risk. Why this obsession with reducing cases if we took the sting out of covid?

Kids need to be children. They aren’t human shields for adults. Adults are expect to sacrifice for kids, not the other way around. Kids deserve their one and only childhood. They don’t deserve to be treated like disease vectors that need to be muzzled to make frightened parents and educators feel safe. Double so when all those adults can get a free, highly effective vaccine.

Making them mandatory is even worse. The state has no right to force my kid to wear a mask at school in order to have an education. Parents should be making that call for their own kid.

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As a former kid (lol), I can't say having to wear a mask would have had any adverse effect on my school experience. It sucked anyways. I hated being there and hated wasting my life every day being shown material that was of zero benefit to me, and being treated like crap by people who don't even know me.

Honestly back then I would have felt the same thing that I do now: that I am happy to wear a mask so I and/or my parents/grandparents or other people around me don't die of a completely preventable virus, and that people who refuse to wear masks are idiots for not doing the most simple, effortless thing to help prevent the needless spread of the virus.

Wearing a mask doesn't steal anyone's childhood. Does wearing glasses steal your childhood? How about braces? We do A LOT of uncomfortable things in our life for our health and future. Wearing a mask is one of those things, due to the ongoing pandemic.

I mean, added bonus, I haven't had a single cold or flu or anything like that in over a year and a half. I'm guessing you (and anyone reading this) can probably say the same, if you strictly masked up, used hand sanitizer, etc. Yeah I've been sick for other reasons, but not a single time have I been sick from something transmitted by another person. First time in my decades of life that I've gone this long without any transmissible illness.

Honestly, all of your stuff sounds like rationalization. Rationalizing putting masks on kids despite there being little evidence they work, are something society wants, and won't have any negative impact on kids. Don't forget, kids have agency. Has anybody asked them what they want?

And it isn't my job to provide proof or data. I'm the critic. I'm the one that wants things to operate as normal. All the burden of proof is upon those who wish to force my child to wear a mask her entire school day 5 days a week. Thus far, all I hear is "OMG CASES", "kids are resilient", and a bunch of weak rationalizations. Nobody has made a case who or what we are protecting. Nobody has provided an end game. Nobody has proven it won't harm kids. Nobody has even asked kids. It's disgusting, really.

Aren't we protecting our health systems? Mississippi is out of ICU beds[0]. As in, if you are in critical condition for ANY REASON, you're just out of luck. Kids are gross. They're going to spread disease. Why not take a (relatively simple) precaution that can save lives, including people who didn't even catch COVID.

It's like how I look both ways before turning onto or crossing a one-way. Sure, it probably doesn't help much, but there's a chance that it could save my life and another driver's.

[0]: https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,21994,420,873.html

From everything I've read Mississippi is out of ICU beds because they test everybody for covid and if you are covid positive, regardless of symptoms, you get the "covid protocol" treatment. Said protocol adds significant overhead to everything. Perhaps they should revisit testing every individual for covid or maybe stop freaking out over every positive case.

Also, they had 1.6 years to build infrastructure to deal with this. That was the entire damn point of this in the first place. "Flatten the curve for two weeks to make sure healthcare systems can handle the load" There is literally zero excuse for society to suffer because no capacity was added. Zero.

You cannot even blame staffing shortages... they could have thrown truckloads of money at doctors and nurses to get them onboard. It would have still been cheaper and more effective than the nonsense we are doing now.

In short, yeah it sucks hospitals might be "full" but that ain't societies fault and we shouldn't be punished for it.

Judging by your stance across this thread I doubt it will matter, but I'll share it anyway for the readers. Take it for whatever you think it's worth.

My anecdotal experience via my SO who is an ICU nurse is that what you've read is not accurate. In the ICU I'm familiar with they do not have fewer beds available due to the covid protocols. The protocols do make their job more difficult and time consuming, but they have more beds than ever. Still, they're at capacity across our state due to an extreme influx of severe covid cases since delta made its way here over the past 6 weeks. Previous to that this particular ICU was ~20% covid, 60% capacity. Now it is ~90% covid, 110% capacity. This is not just because they tested positive - these are people on various levels of oxygen. They are intubating covid patients in the ER because there's no room anywhere else.

I'm in arguably the reddest state in the US where most people share your views. I'm not sure how you can say apathy toward spreading a contagious virus is not societies "fault".

PS: they are throwing truckloads of money at doctors and nurses, luckily for us.

> I'm not sure how you can say apathy toward spreading a contagious virus is not societies "fault".

Moralizing spreading an airborne highly contagious respiratory virus is one of the most toxic, dangerous things we’ve done. It’s absurd. It’s a virus. It does what it does. People catch it. It’s nobody’s fault.

The people living in your red state are perfectly fine holding their beliefs.

Opposing governmental mandates is one thing, but eschewing personal responsibility is supposed to be the antithesis of these folks worldview. It's a bit baffling, though sadly not surprising.

And to be clear, the majority of the conservatives I know personally are vaccinated and wear masks, by virtue of their belief in personal responsibility.

"You are stealing their childhood away"

Stealing their childhood away, really? It's an article of clothing. My kid objects to wearing pants a whole lot more than he objects to wearing a mask. He still needs to wear pants.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why this is such a huge deal. People have come to think of clothing as a marker of your tribe, and not wearing the expected clothing as social deviancy. That's why wearing a hajib is so triggering for so many Americans, or why guys wearing skirts is an affront against nature (but strangely not in Scotland!), or why folks get killed over wearing gang colors, or why I desperately wanted a denim jacket when I was in 1st grade in the 80s.

And if that's the case, sure, you can have your tribe and I'll have mine, and my kid will wear a mask because that's what the people around him do, and yours won't because that's what the people around her do, and then maybe my tribe will still have ICU units available and yours won't. Okay. But I can assure you that kids in Singapore or Taiwan or now California, where mask-wearing is just accepted, grow up just fine.

Stealing their childhood away, really? It's an article of clothing.

It's an article of clothing which covers of the faces, the facial expressions, the smiles of all their friends and teachers. A typical modern preschool for two working parents is what, 50 hours a week? You are sending your child to a place where they are spending the bulk of their waking hours, the bulk of their socialization, and not allowing them to see smiles. I can still remember the faces of my preschool friends, I am still friends with some. If I had never been able to match smiles with them, would it still be the same? And even if they are fine in the long run, you are still making a year of their life (or more? what is the end game exactly?) significantly worse. It boggles my mind that smart people like yourself are so blase about this.

and then maybe my tribe will still have ICU units available and yours won't.

Masking kids at schools isn't going to have anything to do with this. Denmark has done just fine keeping schools open with no masking ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/denmark-schools-covid-19-pande... ). If ICU's are within two or three doublings of filling up, then shut down the gyms and concerts and indoor dining for adults. If all such things are open, as I believe they are in California, then protecting ICU units is clearly not an imminent concern.

Okay. But I can assure you that kids in Singapore or Taiwan or now California, where mask-wearing is just accepted, grow up just fine.

What? Until coronavirus hit, there has never been a society that kept it's children masked among children from other families at all times. No kid has "grown up" under such conditions.

Don't kids in Singapore and Taiwan only wear masks when they're sick? (Rather than the entire class at all times; at least, up until the start of the pandemic.) If so, it seems like a mistake to use that as any precedent for how kids in California will grow up under the present regime.

Great just don’t force my kid to wear a mask at school. That’s all I ask.

I find forcing kids to wear masks at school so morally bankrupt I am at a loss for words. And all I get from the people who push it is rationalization and gaslighting.

I have a right to object to my daughter wearing a mask at school. You have no right to force that on me and my family.

Oh, come on. I couldn't wear shorts to school in elementary school. Principle's rules, and it didn't matter how hot it was.

Nor could I wear things that showed shoulders, among a slew of other things. I wasn't allowed to take a same-sex love interest to proms, nor anyone from another school (and it didn't matter that they lived in the same neighborhood). Blue hair? Go home until you fix it. We were told that the homecoming "powder puff" game was their legal girls football.

Heck, we had people watch us enter toilet stalls in elementary school to 'make sure' we peed during break.

These things happen all the time for both children and adults. Some were just stupid rules and some really freaking unfair, but most didn't ruin childhoods. And yet, folks are asking to wear masks to protect others because we think it helps is somehow ruining childhoods?

I gotta say, I just don't understand.

Pretty much all I hear from the pro-mask at school club are rationalizations. Your rebuttal is nothing but gaslighting me and rationalization. No facts, no science, no data.

It’s honestly abusive. How dare the government force my child to wear a mask at school against my objections.

So, instead of explaining literally anything, you come back saying you are victim (without explaining how), upholding your right to possibly put your child in danger (because I doubt you are a disease expert), and everyone is lying without facts - facts that you yourself didn't offer?

I'm okay with that. Think it's dumb but it's your school, not mine. My 3-year-old's preschool requires masks and it's fine. Was a bit of an adjustment (they were not required to wear one last year, as 2's) but over the first 2 weeks of school you can see the whole class going from 1 little girl who wore one last year (even though not required) to about half the class wearing them at the start of this year, to everyone just doing it automatically. My kid will even ask for his mask if we're going out to the playground now.

and if my kid asked to wear a mask I’d tell them it is unnecessary, they aren’t gonna die of covid and just because everybody else does it doesn’t make it right. Peer pressure isn’t always good.

Kids don’t need masks. End of story.

"Teachers have been vaccinated. Parents have been vaccinated."

I really wish that was true! Sadly in the USA the amount of "vaccine hesitancy" remains unbelievably high.

Who cares? If you and your loved ones are vaccinated y’all are good to go.

As the article this discussion is about… covid is here forever. Time to accept it and move the hell on.

I care.

I'm vaccinated. I can still catch it - I'm much more unlikely to end up in hospital, but it's still an unpleasant illness to have, with a small chance of long-term complications that are not at all well understood.

And if I do catch it I can still spread it to others, who may not be vaccinated.

I very much care about not killing someone else by spreading Covid to them, even if they deliberately chose not to get the vaccine. I'm furious with them (and with the information sources they consumed that lead them to that decision) but I absolutely don't want to contribute to their suffering or death.

It's obviously perfectly fine for you to feel that way about Covid, but in my opinion the correct thing for you to do would be to isolate yourself and try to minimize the chance of being infected instead of wanting further damaging restrictions to be forced on other people (I don't mean relatively non-intrusive measures such as mask wearing, but any form of lockdowns).

Even masks. Because covid is here forever and people need to accept that and live with it.

>I can still catch it

Yes, you can still catch it regardless what we do with NPIs. Stop living in fear.

Judging by how many of my well thought out comments got downvoted… lots of people here are living in fear still.

It’s son intellectually dishonest to downvote people who express valid criticism. It’s pure tribalism… which is what is just about 40% for all our actions the last 1.6 years.

I think the most economical way of thinking about it is that we're stuck with a percentage of refuseniks and have to deal with them continuing to spread covid.

I am of a certain population that is more succeptable, and I just accept that there are people who would welcome my death from covid if it would save them from the slightest inconvenience.

I admire you for making reasonable arguments, you have more patience than me by far.

I hate to be blunt but sometimes life is unpleasant, even more so now. Do you think that it's fair to demand people change their way of living because you don't want an unpleasant illness? I think it's unpleasant when people eat seafood (I don't like the smell) but I don't demand everybody stop eating seafood.

"Do you think that it's fair to demand people change their way of living because you don't want an unpleasant illness?"

I think it's fair to demand that they change their way of living to prevent more deaths - 645,000 and counting just in the USA.

If we weren't living in a sea of unvaccinated people this conversation would be a lot easier.

Manners change over time. Maybe masks will join normal etiquette with other polite things, which benefits everyone around. (such as: closing your mouth when coughing, washing hands after going to the toilet, wearing at least shorts)

I advise you don't go into forests to enjoy nature, there is a small chance you'll get bitten by a tick and contract chronic lyme disease which happened to my brother in law. It could happen to you too, there's a chance. Better not risk it.

You do you. Just don't force society to continue doing any of this, that's all I ask. It's time to move on.

Let me try and follow your logic here.

You say the vaccine doesn't stop you from catching or spreading the virus, it just stops you from getting as badly sick. If that's the case then why do you care whether others are vaccinated or not? If it doesn't change the chances of them passing it on to you, and just changes how sick they'll get, then surely it doesn't make any difference to you?

> If it doesn't change the chances of them passing it on to you

Where are they saying that?

> Who cares? If you and your loved ones are vaccinated y’all are good to go.

The effects of COVID complications aren't somehow magically isolated to the patient. Good luck to anyone who's young, healthy, and COVID-vaccinated, but has a bike or car accident, gives birth in a hospital, falls down some stairs, or otherwise requires inpatient care.

Remember the endlessly repeated mantra to "flatten the curve" from circa March 2020? The "curve" refers to ICU occupancy. Max that out and suddenly the effects of COVID spill beyond just sickening and killing its direct victims to complicating your health system.

I thought we already flattened the curve. In March 2020. So why aren't we back to normal now?

Because the privileged tech worker class is still afraid even after everybody they know got vaccinated.

Delta infects and kills kids. PICUs are getting full in some areas.

No. Don't remember? Someone, somewhere, early in the beginning said children are not affected at all!!1! /s

I never considered this argument. Glad this comment thread hasn't descended into silly name calling and people are actually putting their arguments forwards

It's a surgical mask, not a ball and chain.

You are forcing children, who are entirely dependent upon the judgment of adults, to wear a mask every day of school--indefinitely. That is a pretty big ask. Especially with almost no proof that it is required, works, and doesn't harm children.

What's the difference between that and asking them to wear a uniform?

The fact that we've let one disgusting abuse to creep up on us is not an excuse to green light all of them. Uniform may not be the hill to die on, but a pretty awful thing nonetheless. In ex-USSR during early 90s, when many rules around school discipline were effectively spayed, what went out - let me tell you - red ties first, and uniforms the close second. Despite all the scolding from principals and teachers.

Unlike a uniform masks cover the most important way humans express emotion. That alone is enough reason to not require kids to wear them.

The justification for kids wearing masks is so paper thin with so little attention paid to what emotional and development effects it has on the kids… it boggles my mind. Supporting kids in masks is intellectually and morally bankrupt.

And to the people downvoting me and gaslighting me… you are part of the problem. I have a right to feel the way I do, which is reason enough to never, ever force parents to mask their kids in order to get public education. It should be the parents choice, period.

Exactly right. The parent poster you replied to is another in the long list of people that flippantly disregard the harms of masking. Good luck dealing with a generation that has developed unhealthy phobias and has severe emotional attachment issues that's also unequipped to enter college.

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