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Comment by mholm | Hacker News Reader

> Please remember that there are designated items onboard that may be used in difficult situations, and alternative measures such as tape should never be used.”

I'd be curious what these are, and why the instinct is to use tape instead of them. Stun guns? Rope? A strongly worded letter?

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From the actual source article (https://www.newsweek.com/united-airlines-warns-flights-atten...),

> Flight attendants used duct tape to restrain an agitated and disruptive man who was able to slip out of handcuffs on a flight in 2003, according to reporting from the Associated Press. And again in 2008, a woman who physically attacked both passengers and flight attendants got the duct tape treatment on a United flight according to The Seattle Times.

> A spokesperson for United declined to identify the "designated items onboard" the memo advises using instead of duct tape.

But from the submission (perhaps edited since):

> Unruly flyers aboard United Airlines may be detained by seat belts and plastic hand cuffs, but duct tape won’t be one of the tools utilized

That may not be an exhaustive list.

Of course. I just don't think a different article saying UA declined to comment is more informative than this one thinking it knows at least some of the list.

Handcuffs (not fluffy, as mentioned by a sibling). No key, just a latch. They are easy to release in case of emergency.

Source: was cabin crew and use of cuffs was part of the training.

I don’t see how handcuffs are better? They have the potential to injure the agitated person as well as crew trying to restrain the perp. Duct tape is gentler as well as does the job it’s being enlisted to do.

Duck tape is harder to remove in case of an emergency. With the cuffs the latch is in a position well known to the crew so they can just be taken off.

Handcuffs are specifically made for cuffing hands whereas tape is made to hold stuff together.

If injuries are a concern, there are also medical-grade restraints that are less dangerous than metal handcuffs.

Good points. Are there different kinds of handcuffs? I’m under the impression they’re designed to bind one forearm to the other, rather than bind a forearm to immovable object.

Zip ties while used for temporary restraint by LEOs has weaknesses but medical restraints seem reasonable.

Handcuffs seem... insufficient when we're talking about someone allegedly kicking at a window.

The passenger was able to escape from the handcuffs.

It's sounds like this may have been the very corporate situation where the instructions didn't work so they improvised. Later, disciplinary discussions never seem to fully acknowledge that the instructions didn't work:

"We tried handcuffs but he got out." "You don't duct tape passengers, use the handcuffs." "I want to hear you acknowledge that the handcuffs didn't work!" "Duct tape is never the right solution..."

I think they have zip-tie restraints for wrists and ankles, but I don't know if they have anything available for muzzling.

Do they actually need to muzzle people?

How exactly do you suggest restraining someone to a seat who is trying to bite you?

Like imagine you’ve got them on the ground in the aisle and need to get them restrained in a seat… muzzling seems like a good plan to me.

I mean, I'm no expert on restraining, but I think there are ways to restraining a person that attempts to bite you. I don't think the cops are reaching for the ball gag when they need to get someone cuffed and into a seat.

Cops have back seats in their cars with a plexiglass screen and doors that don’t open from the inside. They also have tasers, pepper spray, and batons.

No such thing exists on an airplane so you would have to tie them to the seat somehow.

Flight attendants aren’t exactly know for being big and beefy.

There are generally two methods of restraining a biting person as far as I know. One is to muzzle/duct tape/etc. The other is to bounce their head off the concrete until they stop trying to bite you.

While we could assign airline attendants a concrete block as part of their kit, concrete blocks weigh quite a bit and are not FAA approved.

I therefore recommend we go the duct tape route.

Yeah you have a cop on each arm to stretch them out and lay a third on top of them to drop elbows on their head until they stop.

If they're screaming at the top of their lungs solely to annoy I suspect that's quite reasonable. What's unfortunate here is that a tiny minority of people have ruined domestic travel with their behavior.

It's such a shame that there's no way we could impose some sort of requirement, a sort of passport if you will, on passengers that would eliminate just about all of this. But I can dream.

It's called a class system.

> What's unfortunate here is that a tiny minority of people have ruined domestic travel with their behavior.

Isn't this sort of thing fairly rare? Usually when things are "in the news" it means it fairly uncommon, because if it happens frequently it's no longer "news".

I haven't flown since COVID though, and never any domestic US flights either.

So these incidents seem to happen once every week or two. So is your position here that if there were a commercial passenger airline crash every week or two, people wouldn't and shouldn't reconsider flying?

I haven't flown either and I have no plans to do so in the near future until either a vaccine passport system is imposed or the pandemic ends. I can wait.

If they are attempting to bite people or spitting, definitely yes.

Yes, when they're assaulting you with saliva, a biohazard.

However I think that a ventilated bag over the head is probably safer. Blocking the mouth is risky.

I mean, at the moment in aviation history, they would be wearing a mask. I don't think that's going to be easily removable if you're cuffed.

That exists and I know at least police use them. Called spit hoods.

They use them sometimes, other times they just punch the restrained suspect in the face[1].

[1] https://ktla.com/news/local-news/lapd-officer-under-investig...

That was the only thing about the video that disturbed me. Duct taping the dude to the seat was fine, but putting duct tape over his mouth is super dangerous. He could easily have barfed and been in real trouble.

I would rather have a bag over my head. I've always had a fear of something over my mouth because my allergies are usually so bad I breath through my mouth.

This is a legitimate concern. Someone could have a hard time breathing. That said, what is the option when someone starts shouting obscenities throughout a flight? Tranquilize them?

>That said, what is the option when someone starts shouting obscenities throughout a flight?

Ignoring them until they tire themselves out.

Normal people yes. People hopped on something? I hope they have options, though maybe the best is off board them at the next airport and bill them.

Land at the nearest safe airport and have them removed by law enforcement. Tolerate the noise until then. It won't hurt anyone.

From the article:

"Unruly flyers aboard United Airlines may be detained by seat belts and plastic hand cuffs"

Handcuffs or zipties mgiht be onboard.

I thought the captain has a taser available usually

That seems worse. Harder to accidentally kill someone with duct tape.

Not only is a taser still a lethal weapon in some circumstances, its effects dont necessarily last for the remainder of a flight. Most likely use would be to temporarily subdue someone to then restrain them.

Isn't the procedure these days that the pilots are pretty much locked in to the cockpit and can only get out when the door is reasonably secured from people charging it? I would imagine that could be hard to ensure in situations where a taser may be needed.

On a recent Delta flight I was seated near the front and got a good view of this. When one of the pilots came out to use the lavatory one of the flight attendants stood with the food service cart turned sideways blocking the aisle at the front of the business class cabin.

So potential hijackers should sit in first class. Got it.

This was a domestic flight with no separate first class, just economy and business/first.

I'm sure if there was a first class cabin they would be at the front of the first class cabin.

based on the rule that cell phones have to be turned off to not cause potential interference with ground networks - the idea of a taser going off and accidently hitting the fuselage seems worse...

Captains do not carry tasers. Some pilots are members of the flight deck officer program and carry handguns to defend the cockpit. They generally aren't supposed to get involved in restraining unruly passengers.

Isn’t United a union shop? Can’t the members talk any sense into the union?

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