United Airlines bans duct tape restraints | Hacker News Reader

United Airlines bans duct tape restraints

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66 pointswalterbell136 comments

My sympathy is with the flight crew. They didn't sign up to be police. They have spent the last year having to enforce mask rules. Meanwhile people have been losing their minds and bad behavior has become more common and even encouraged by a segment of the population. Imagine being a flight attendant and having to restrain someone physically, that sounds horrible. They should be given training and tools, and a bonus if they have to go through that.

Duct tape is a bad look… but if it gets to the point where it seems necessary, I don’t see why not.

It’s not like people are being duct toed to seats on a whim. One of these passengers tried to kick out a window.

Instead of being a bad look for the airline, it should be a bad look for the perp and a good look for the company which refuses to let unruly passengers increase the dangers of flying in confined space within a fragile vehicle.

Behave or lose your privileges and you get to pay 3x next time you try to get on a flight.

If someone tries to kick out a window I don't think they should be allowed to fly ever again

For some additional context, the person in that story was 13 years old.

This hasn’t been the only person restrained due to unruliness, however it’s been the only one where we know the person was trying to kick out a window —there have been others attempting to open exits.

Also I don’t know this 13-yo. Some can be small some can be large.

13 years olds should be mature enough to know how to behave.

If someone tries to drive while impaired, they should never be able to drive again. If someone drives their car at dangerous speeds, they should never be able to drive again. If someone overdraws their account, they should never be able to bank again. If someone is caught on their bicycle without a helmet, they should never be able to ride a bike again …

lol you people and your whataboutism. Taking down a plane and putting a plane full of people in a dangerous situation is not equivalent to riding a bike without a helmet. How ridiculous

Yes, it’s not equivalent… but I think the point was more that absolute banishment as a punishment to anything is ridiculous, primitive, and more an emotional response than a logical one.

The FAA can impose huge fines and a lifetime flying ban on unruly passengers.

Airlines can ban passengers on their own, here's a recent famous case where a state legislator got banned:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/26/politics/alaska-airlines-susp...

Not really sure if economics is solving these sorts of crimes.

The customer is always wrong?

>One of these passengers tried to kick out a window.

Right? If someone attempts to cause structural damage at 30k feet, I'm going to stop that person with any means necessary.

Yeah, I would have zero hesitation choking that person out if they were trying to kick a window or open a door. Even if there is a risk of killing them.

A 13yo kid?

Because that's who was trying to kick out a window.

That incident was a case of a kid throwing a tantrum. A choke hold is not the proper response to that. IMO, duck taping the little shit to the seat is a very appropriate response if the child is truly uncontrollable.

I'm in favor of the duct tape as well (as a step after requiring a minor's parents to manage them), but in these types of situations there isn't much time to assess and respond appropriately. For all anyone knows the 13 year old could have been attempting the next 9/11 in a coordinated effort.

I'm fairly certain that the next coordinated 9/11 attack won't involve unarmed 13 year olds.

Yea me too, I meant in a quick, tense situation sometimes it's hard to tell how old someone is

Now that duct tape is not allowed, choking is a valid option. Blame it on the airline for exposing the unruly kids to worse off option of restraining. We are post 9-11. There are children in some conflict-torn regions that kill and rape more than the worse serial killers in America.

Are you saying a 13 year old is incapable of kicking out a window or incapable of understand that kicking out a window is going to cause catastrophic consequences and therefore should be treated differently?

What about this being a 13 year old is mitigating in your mind vs a middle-aged person?

The kid is arguably too stupid to know better so taping him to a seat and making him look like an idiot is more appropriate (especially considering the parent asked for help in this case) and physical violence is less appropriate relative to an equivalent situation with someone old enough to know better.

Quick question: was the comment I responded to edited to include the 3rd part, or did I just speed read it and only see the first 2 lines?

If the latter, sorry I misunderstood what you were addressing.

Age plays a role up to the point it is practical, kids/teens should be treated more carefully no doubt and in most cases are easier to deal with.

But otherwise this isn’t a punitive thing where we’re measuring how wrong they are and their mental ability / level of guilt before acting. It’s a temporary and immediate solution when the parent can’t handle it on their own and the staff talking to them isn’t mitigating the risk.

The idea is to choose the safest and least violent viable option until law enforcement can handle it (choking someone… eh not so much).

Absent ‘alternative means’ provided by the airline, duct tape is one of the quickest, most widely accessible, and probably most practical if non-violent options all fail. Not everyone carries rope or other restraints. These are civilian airline workers too.

Restraining someone can have a legitimate mental impact and bad PR but so does the rest of the passengers who are all naturally scared of plane crashes.

You guys have really lost your minds on here.

Someone trying to kick through a window or open a door does not pose any threat to you.

The door will not open. The window itself is strong enough to withstand any kick that someone could put on it, but that is largely irrelevant as there is the a scratch pane, and that additional window with the tiny hole in the bottom in front of it for additional protection.

If you're holding a choke hold beyond the point someone has passed out, i.e. "risking killing them", then YOU are the danger to others in that situation, not mentally ill dude trying in futility to exit the aircraft at 36000ft.

There is a risk of killing someone regardless of how long you hold a choke hold. Obviously if you could restrain them it wouldn’t be necessary.

Im also not sure what to make of your comments regarding windows and doors on airplanes. It seems the doors would be impossible to open at high enough altitude, but I’m not so sure about windows:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2243764/Man-arreste...

I wonder if in this example it was just the interior layer of plastic/glass?

Doors including emergency exits are locked by the aircraft's systems when airborne.

It's possible, though unlikely, the guy in the article made it through the middle plexiglass layer in addition to the inner layer which is only there to stop you from scratching the plexiglass; at 4mm thick it's certainly within the realm of human strength. However at 12mm the outer layer is comfortably beyond what a human could crack without weapons/tools.

I think that’s the real point of the duct tape - to prevent other passengers from taking matters into their own hands.

Is it possible to cause structural damage on a passenger aircraft window without tools? Seems like it should have been a design a criteria that it shouldn't be, at least not in x minutes.

The time to find out if a piece of plastic can handle a 100 lb bag of water slamming into it is not when that piece of plastic is keeping 100 people alive.

I'm all for restraining any passenger that behaves that way, with or without duct tape.

I'm mostly curious about whether there's a real risk or not of a passenger breaking a window without tools.

If you have a passenger so out of control it tries to break a window, who knows what other actions they will take when their attempt to kill other passengers proves fruitless? Duct tape the hell out of those loons, let the psychiatrist deal with them on landing. Add them to the do-not-fly list while you're at it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Garry_Hoy

This seems like one of those situations where we don't want to just assume that what we think the window can handle is the same as what it can actually handle.

why should it be the design criteria? if people cannot behave, in a safety critical environment - those people shouldn't be allowed in that environment in future. no! the wing design won't change because a 200 lb man wants to jump on it on a whim. that is not its intended function and such failure modes should not be part of this conversation. 'hey lets make entire cockpit out of heavy steel, since we never know some pilot could lose his cool and break some buttons'

... It was a child. A child "tried to kick out the window".

I expect airline windows to be able to withstand the kick of a child. Even if they were an older child.

A child whose mother asked for help because the kid was fighting her and totally out of control.

I don’t think you can reasonably expect people to sit there and do nothing in a situation where a 13 year old boy is overpowering his mother and kicking airplane windows.

Wouldn't choke a child, but restraining and talking to him might/should help.

Yeah for sure. When I said I’d have zero hesitation choking someone out in my other comment I meant in a situation in which they could not be restrained. Teenage boys can be pretty big and strong, unlikely at 13 but some 16 year olds can be 6 feet tall and 180lbs.

Like I’m definitely not sitting there going “oh well I guess since we couldn’t hold them down well just have to hope the window doesn’t break”.

At the end of the day:

It was still a child. The airplane windows should hold. Restraints are fine, if you really need them. Duct tape, though?

It was still a child. Even at 13.

Is it a bad look? If they don't get into legal hot water then it seems like a powerful marketing tool.

> If they don't get into legal hot water

I think that's what they're worried about, hence the notice.

I think what it comes down to is that there are restraint systems that exist that are better than duct tape (and look better to other passengers). Why aren't these airlines carrying them as standard equipment?

I was under the impression flight crews had a set or two of handcuffs onboard. The memo seems to indicate something for this purpose is.

> Instead, he is asking crews to use the items aboard flights designed to keep flyers at their seats – and prevent them from becoming a hazard to the flight or other passengers.

I'd also note the Frontier incident that made the news was passengers duct taping the miscreant, not the crew. If I were a flight attendant in this situation, I might pull the "oh, whoops, dropped a roll of duct tape... would one of you grab that for me?" tactic.

I hope those restraints include a gag to stop them from screaming for hours, then duct tape would be truly unneeded.

Usually, if something really bizarre like this happens inside the cabin, the plane will divert to the nearest airport. Unless they're in the middle of flying over a large ocean, it's unlikely to be hours.

Because then you have to officially incorporate physical combat into the job profile of cabin crew.

I think distantly like employees confronting a robber ... it's hard to define good rules to tell an employee when to do that / you're worried about their judgment.

So you just say "hey don't do that".

If the crew doesn't act decisively, the other passengers will. The duct tape seems fine to me. Over the mouth seems dangerous, but I wasn't there...I can see where it might have been the only reasonable choice.

"One of these passengers tried to kick out a window"

I am duct taping this person. Then when someone says I should not do this, I am duct taping that person.

One of these passengers tried to kick out a window.

This was a child. A child tried to kick out a window. And to be absolutely frank: I fully expect airplane windows to be able to withstand a kick from a child.

I understand it probably wasn't on a whim, but surely, there are better options in this case.

> A child tried to kick out a window.

A 13-year-old boy. If he was 3, that'd be an acceptable excuse. At 13.. not so much. Even if he had no clue what might happen, he surely knew that vandalism is bad.

> I fully expect airplane windows to be able to withstand a kick from a child.

I know a guy who was 6'9 and 240lbs of lean muscle at 13. It's an extreme example, but the point still stands. If I were on that plane, I sure as hell won't suggest to wait and see how many kicks it takes him.

> but surely, there are better options in this case

They obviously didn't have, and it's the kind of situation where you have to restrain that person immediately. No time to reflect on your options. Still, what's your solution? Here's mine: Any person past the age of 7 who throws a tantrum gets 500 hours of community service.

> I fully expect airplane windows to be able to withstand a kick from a child.

Would you bet your life on it? Inconveniencing an out of control teenager for a few hours to ensure the safety of all passengers seems like a pretty sane response.

> Please remember that there are designated items onboard that may be used in difficult situations, and alternative measures such as tape should never be used.”

I'd be curious what these are, and why the instinct is to use tape instead of them. Stun guns? Rope? A strongly worded letter?

From the actual source article (https://www.newsweek.com/united-airlines-warns-flights-atten...),

> Flight attendants used duct tape to restrain an agitated and disruptive man who was able to slip out of handcuffs on a flight in 2003, according to reporting from the Associated Press. And again in 2008, a woman who physically attacked both passengers and flight attendants got the duct tape treatment on a United flight according to The Seattle Times.

> A spokesperson for United declined to identify the "designated items onboard" the memo advises using instead of duct tape.

But from the submission (perhaps edited since):

> Unruly flyers aboard United Airlines may be detained by seat belts and plastic hand cuffs, but duct tape won’t be one of the tools utilized

That may not be an exhaustive list.

Of course. I just don't think a different article saying UA declined to comment is more informative than this one thinking it knows at least some of the list.

Handcuffs (not fluffy, as mentioned by a sibling). No key, just a latch. They are easy to release in case of emergency.

Source: was cabin crew and use of cuffs was part of the training.

The passenger was able to escape from the handcuffs.

It's sounds like this may have been the very corporate situation where the instructions didn't work so they improvised. Later, disciplinary discussions never seem to fully acknowledge that the instructions didn't work:

"We tried handcuffs but he got out." "You don't duct tape passengers, use the handcuffs." "I want to hear you acknowledge that the handcuffs didn't work!" "Duct tape is never the right solution..."

Handcuffs seem... insufficient when we're talking about someone allegedly kicking at a window.

I don’t see how handcuffs are better? They have the potential to injure the agitated person as well as crew trying to restrain the perp. Duct tape is gentler as well as does the job it’s being enlisted to do.

Duck tape is harder to remove in case of an emergency. With the cuffs the latch is in a position well known to the crew so they can just be taken off.

Handcuffs are specifically made for cuffing hands whereas tape is made to hold stuff together.

If injuries are a concern, there are also medical-grade restraints that are less dangerous than metal handcuffs.

Good points. Are there different kinds of handcuffs? I’m under the impression they’re designed to bind one forearm to the other, rather than bind a forearm to immovable object.

Zip ties while used for temporary restraint by LEOs has weaknesses but medical restraints seem reasonable.

I think they have zip-tie restraints for wrists and ankles, but I don't know if they have anything available for muzzling.

That was the only thing about the video that disturbed me. Duct taping the dude to the seat was fine, but putting duct tape over his mouth is super dangerous. He could easily have barfed and been in real trouble.

I would rather have a bag over my head. I've always had a fear of something over my mouth because my allergies are usually so bad I breath through my mouth.

This is a legitimate concern. Someone could have a hard time breathing. That said, what is the option when someone starts shouting obscenities throughout a flight? Tranquilize them?

Land at the nearest safe airport and have them removed by law enforcement. Tolerate the noise until then. It won't hurt anyone.

>That said, what is the option when someone starts shouting obscenities throughout a flight?

Ignoring them until they tire themselves out.

Normal people yes. People hopped on something? I hope they have options, though maybe the best is off board them at the next airport and bill them.

Do they actually need to muzzle people?

If they're screaming at the top of their lungs solely to annoy I suspect that's quite reasonable. What's unfortunate here is that a tiny minority of people have ruined domestic travel with their behavior.

It's such a shame that there's no way we could impose some sort of requirement, a sort of passport if you will, on passengers that would eliminate just about all of this. But I can dream.

> What's unfortunate here is that a tiny minority of people have ruined domestic travel with their behavior.

Isn't this sort of thing fairly rare? Usually when things are "in the news" it means it fairly uncommon, because if it happens frequently it's no longer "news".

I haven't flown since COVID though, and never any domestic US flights either.

So these incidents seem to happen once every week or two. So is your position here that if there were a commercial passenger airline crash every week or two, people wouldn't and shouldn't reconsider flying?

I haven't flown either and I have no plans to do so in the near future until either a vaccine passport system is imposed or the pandemic ends. I can wait.

It's called a class system.

Yes, when they're assaulting you with saliva, a biohazard.

However I think that a ventilated bag over the head is probably safer. Blocking the mouth is risky.

That exists and I know at least police use them. Called spit hoods.

They use them sometimes, other times they just punch the restrained suspect in the face[1].

[1] https://ktla.com/news/local-news/lapd-officer-under-investig...

I mean, at the moment in aviation history, they would be wearing a mask. I don't think that's going to be easily removable if you're cuffed.

How exactly do you suggest restraining someone to a seat who is trying to bite you?

Like imagine you’ve got them on the ground in the aisle and need to get them restrained in a seat… muzzling seems like a good plan to me.

I mean, I'm no expert on restraining, but I think there are ways to restraining a person that attempts to bite you. I don't think the cops are reaching for the ball gag when they need to get someone cuffed and into a seat.

There are generally two methods of restraining a biting person as far as I know. One is to muzzle/duct tape/etc. The other is to bounce their head off the concrete until they stop trying to bite you.

While we could assign airline attendants a concrete block as part of their kit, concrete blocks weigh quite a bit and are not FAA approved.

I therefore recommend we go the duct tape route.

Cops have back seats in their cars with a plexiglass screen and doors that don’t open from the inside. They also have tasers, pepper spray, and batons.

No such thing exists on an airplane so you would have to tie them to the seat somehow.

Yeah you have a cop on each arm to stretch them out and lay a third on top of them to drop elbows on their head until they stop.

Flight attendants aren’t exactly know for being big and beefy.

If they are attempting to bite people or spitting, definitely yes.

From the article:

"Unruly flyers aboard United Airlines may be detained by seat belts and plastic hand cuffs"

Handcuffs or zipties mgiht be onboard.

I thought the captain has a taser available usually

That seems worse. Harder to accidentally kill someone with duct tape.

Not only is a taser still a lethal weapon in some circumstances, its effects dont necessarily last for the remainder of a flight. Most likely use would be to temporarily subdue someone to then restrain them.

Isn't the procedure these days that the pilots are pretty much locked in to the cockpit and can only get out when the door is reasonably secured from people charging it? I would imagine that could be hard to ensure in situations where a taser may be needed.

On a recent Delta flight I was seated near the front and got a good view of this. When one of the pilots came out to use the lavatory one of the flight attendants stood with the food service cart turned sideways blocking the aisle at the front of the business class cabin.

So potential hijackers should sit in first class. Got it.

This was a domestic flight with no separate first class, just economy and business/first.

I'm sure if there was a first class cabin they would be at the front of the first class cabin.

Captains do not carry tasers. Some pilots are members of the flight deck officer program and carry handguns to defend the cockpit. They generally aren't supposed to get involved in restraining unruly passengers.

based on the rule that cell phones have to be turned off to not cause potential interference with ground networks - the idea of a taser going off and accidently hitting the fuselage seems worse...

Isn’t United a union shop? Can’t the members talk any sense into the union?

Um...if you're being physically disruptive on an aircraft in flight, and the only way to subdue you is physical restraint, I think nearly any non-lethal (and, ideally, minimally injurious) method is warranted.

This isn't like when that Kentucky doctor got dragged off an airplane in 2017. Clear and present threats to a planeload of people require proportionate measures.

Honestly, given the way people are behaving today, I think every plane should have security personnel. Flight attendants should not be responsible for subduing violent passengers.

The world is so crazy, I'm just grateful that the passengers were not arrested for assault, or some other bullshit charge, simply for taking their fate in their own hands and restraining that asshole with available materials.

Truly, that autistic kid and his disabled mother coulda brought down the entire plane by "kicking out the window." Those passengers are the heroic reincarnation of Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood, or would be if Clint Eastwood were dead. It takes a lot of courage to put "assholes" like that in their place!

The pilots union isn't going to go for this. Remember the pilot is god once the plane is in the air. And if he says tape him to the chair, he's getting taped. They are not going to risk zip ties or seat belts if someone is trying to fight staff and other passengers. And if he's spitting and biting? He's getting tape over his mouth too.

My one and only encounter with unruly passengers (no duct taping in this one):

A guy was standing in the aisle screaming, using obscenities and saying the terrorists stole his luggage in LA.

A voice on the intercom asked if there were any off-duty cops on the plane. There were. They asked for the people in one block of seats to volunteer to be moved.

I heard one of the cops talking to the guy. He said "Do you understand what I'm saying to you?" (I guess he was ranting about the terrorists.) The cop said "Do you understand what I'm saying to YOU?"

They moved him to a window seat and occupied the other two seats in the block so he couldn't move. He was quiet. When I walked past his seat on the way to the bathroom, I deliberately didn't look at him so I don't know if he was cuffed, but I think he was (see next paragraph).

The plane made an emergency landing and some cops came on board and took him off. He went quietly. I think he was cuffed but I'm not sure.

So did the off-duty cops "de-escalate" the situation? I guess they did, but the duct taped kid was a different story and we can't say if that would have worked on him.

The "optics" here might be the opposite: United's leadership is craven and terrified of bad press.

Anyway I guess when flying United I'll have to bring my own duct tape!

You might get some funny looks when you take that through security.

And what does this alternative look like?

I'm unconvinced. Duct tape visually shows that someone was being so bad they needed to be restrained. I'd argue this is great optics: we care about passengers.

And people who get duct taped are visibly restrained with no decorum. They are easily identified as having done something unacceptable and stupid.

The article opens:

> Unruly flyers aboard United Airlines may be detained by seat belts and plastic hand cuffs, but duct tape won’t be one of the tools utilized

There are a lot of deranged internet tough guy vigilante fantasies being displayed here today, but the most fantastical idea of all is that airline aisles are big enough for someone to properly kick a window, or do anything other than be squeezed or hunched over uncomfortably.

Unless better alternatives are actually provided to airline staff the idea of banning one option over another risks just making more dangerous options more likely. All just for optics.

What are the realistic other options here?

Ultimately restraint is going to be the only last resort + least violent option. Whether to the seat or somewhere else.

Are they going to provide restraint belts? Plastic ties? And for what, both hands and legs assuming they don’t try to kick or slam into things? Attachable to seats or wrapped around?

None of these sound nice. But providing these other restraint tools also makes people think they will be more liable to use them, before exploring other options. There’s no easy solution if there is going to be one regulated by the airline.

Archive: https://archive.is/7D68c

See also the actual source article, https://www.newsweek.com/united-airlines-warns-flights-atten...

> use the items aboard flights designed to keep flyers at their seats

> there are designated items onboard that may be used

Burying the lead here. What are these items?

Maybe it's been edited, this wasn't buried but right at the top, well before bit you quoted:

> Unruly flyers aboard United Airlines may be detained by seat belts and plastic hand cuffs, but duct tape won’t be one of the tools utilized

Oh missed that. Thanks!

It's my understanding (I could be wrong) that they use a belt that's not attached to a seat. I think it might even be an extender that they hand out to parents with children on their laps.

The first line of the article says seat belts and plastic hand cuffs.

What else are you supposed to do with such people? There are a certain number of problem people in the human population who will need forcible containment at some point.

They exist. Some people will pretend they don't for political and marketing reasons, but they exist.

These days the solutions seem to be to punish everyone aside from the abuser.

Sadly we are at the point that with each cabin crew, there does need to be an assigned security that will be able to properly restrain and use force if necessary. The US passengers in particular are absolutely insane.

How many of the second guessers there have actually been in physical struggles where they are trying to restrain a person "gently" when the other person does not want to cooperate at all?

I thought the frontier incident used restraint tape, it's like duct tape in size but only sticks to itself

The window pane that the passenger has access to is not the pane in contact with the outside of the aircraft.

The Musical Remix of the recent ducktape event, told by Alfredo Rivera:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aitLrOPSoI8

(original interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoXmnBuLw0)

"Instead, he is asking crews to use the items aboard flights designed to keep flyers at their seats"

Oh you mean like beating them over the head with this food tray? Sounds so much better.

Possibly I’m cynical but I imagine duct tape leaves a mess all over the seat. Please, restrain people in a way that doesn’t cost us anything!

Won't be flying on United any time soon I guess

Those crew members were heroes.

If only there were some safe way to just pump knockout gas into the cabin once everybody is boarded and strapped in, and then wake you up just before landing, air travel would be so much more pleasant.

The Russians tried that when they had a hostage crisis [0]. It did not go well. Out of 850 hostages, up to 130 of them died due to the effects of the knockout gas.

There's a reason why when you have medical surgery, you are knocked out by a highly trained specialist whose sole job during the entire procedure is to monitor your health and make sure you are responding in exactly the right way to the knockout drugs.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

> If only there were some safe way

I guess the other thing to note is that in an emergency I think the crew would very much like it if the passengers were alert and able to evacuate the plane on their own steam.

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