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Comment by weddpros | Hacker News Reader

The west needs to stop sending "recyclable" plastics to Asia

China used to buy plastic waste from the west (95% of Europe and 70% of USA's plastic waste). China isn't some poverty stricken unaccountable backwater where it was just being dumped, they were explicitly engaging in contracts and giving good rates for backhaul routes on cargo ships. If they then mismanaged the waste after they took ownership of it, that's China's failing.

China have since mostly banned that, which sounds like what China needed to do to reign in their incapable plastic recycling industry. So that's fine, but the problem remains that about 80% of ocean plastic waste comes from Asia. Almost 40% from The Philippines alone even when most of the west's waste was going to China. So this can't be handwaved away as being due to "the west", it's a systemic problem in many countries in Asia in particular.

Asia does not just mean « China ». Canada has been sending its plastic to the Philippines, where it is constantly mismanaged and ends up in the ocean (edit: not helped by the fact that Canada’s plastic was full of household garbage making it impossible to recycle properly anyway, see [1]) . Is it Philippines fault for mismanaging ? Sure, but it has been public for a long time and Canada kept sending plastic over there knowing full well what would happen with it. But it doesn’t matter because no one will blame plastic coming from Asia’s river on Canada.

Same story applies to India’s ship dismantling industry, where tons of damaging materials ends up in the ocean. Do we stop sending our ships there ? Of course not, because it doesn’t matter no one will blame Carnival for that.

We are not paying for recycling we are paying for environment damage laundering, so that at home we can display impressive lies such as « 98% of Canadian plastic is recycled » or whatever.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Philippines_waste_dis...

> Asia does not just mean « China »

Thanks I know, but that's where the vast majority of the west's waste went when we still had big pollution problems with other countries. The solution is for them to control their plastic waste properly and instill their culture with values about litter, with economic incentives and technological help.

The issue isn't "whose fault is it", the issue is what can we do about it, because we're all getting equally fucked by this. The hidden assumption is "we = the west". If China mismanages our waste then we shouldn't send it there, because mother nature doesn't care if it's technically our fault or not.

The issue is whose fault it is, because that's who needs to be helped and/or pressured into fixing it.

We should have regulations on exporting waste, but the west exporting waste is not the cause of the pollution.

A lot of waste is exported illegally, and then we refuse to take it back!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_w....

Did you read the link? The Philippines seems to have had adequate inspection regulations, disputed the contract they had with this private company via legal channels, and Canada reciprocated by amending their laws to be able to receive the shipments back and The Philippines kept up pressure until that was done and it seems to be considered settled.

Dealing with other people's plastic is easy because there is demand and money in it for you. Dealing with your own isn't quite so interesting that way -- that's what they need to be encouraged to do.

Dony you think it is an isolated incident? If you search, there are constant disputes with western garbage being illegally imported into second and third world countries. For every ton of garbage that is caught or adressed, seven pass under the radar. These are corrupt, struggling countries - you could import slaves and nukes if you k wo who to bribe

https://www.greenpeace.org/philippines/press/2698/greenpeace...

That's a better question for you to answer, since the incident you brought up contradicts the point you were hoping to make.

And I know how things work in The Philippines, I've lived there for some years, I've driven past the the shanty villages built on landfills and the storm drains filled with garbage. I know about the corruption. And I'm not saying there's no single piece of plastic pollute the ocean from Asia that came from western waste exports, so that kind of angle would be a strawman.

I'm questioning the extraordinary apologetics for the worst polluters when it comes to this issue. The evidence doesn't seem to stack up that the majority or even a significant part of the problem is the western waste export trade.

We would have the right to point fingers if we at least recycled domestically.

As it stands, if countries in Asia act the way we do, they would offload garbage to those even less fortunate. Then we will be pointing fingers at Somalia and wondering how come there is plastic in the ocean still. How come tribal warlords are not dealing with it?

We, the west, have created this problem, and we refuse to address it. Companies that produce 80% of the worlds plastic are headquartered here, listed on our stock exhanges, and financed here. We could resolve this with a stroke of a pen, if we had the balls to take action instead of playing politics

That's utter rubbish, "right to point fingers"? A problem does not somehow become not a problem when the observer (or pointer-outer) changes. Many Asian countries have massive terrible problems with their waste management and refuse to address it. Not created by the west, created by their own decisions. That's the simple fact of the matter.

If X can't/won't do it properly anyone relying on X to do it for them is also at fault.

Nobody who is trying to defend the worst polluters seems to have any actual data giving credence to the idea that the problem is mostly caused by western waste exports.

It's not about defending it, the goal is for it to change.

And that can't possible be by exporting our waste and blaming the ones we are exporting to. Yes there are some ridiculously low hanging fruits in some parts of the world, and more effort must be put into that (from our end as well).

But that doesn't excuse us for not taking the, still low hanging fruits, that we have readily control over.

> It's not about defending it, the goal is for it to change.

For many it actually is about defending it, counter to the goal of change.

> And that can't possible be by exporting our waste and blaming the ones we are exporting to.

What's your evidence for that claim?

I like this mental gymnastics - we have priduced this toxic shit, we refuse to recylce it and ship it to a place where we know it will end up in ocean, and now its someone else's problem.

The west is good at many things, but from slave trade to the oil industry, responsibility and respect for locals was never among them.

The mental gymnastics is thinking Asian countries has no agency or ability to control what they buy or how they manage their waste.

A bit of legal advice, if you know you are facilitating a crime for personal gain, you are likely guilty of a crime. A judge will take dim view of your excuse about the killer or money launderer having his own "agency".

Do you really think these imports are legally clean, they haven't greased a few palms at the customs? You can import anything into Russia if you bribe the right guy.

I bet that if we investigated even just the western side of the trash export industry, we will fund it to be a corupt crine-ridden cesspool

Dispensing unsolicited legal advice is not an argument.

Abdication of responsibility is not an argument

That doesn’t fucking help as long as their governments are willing to do it. What do you think will happen with the local plastics?

Some of the worst offending rivers are in India and the Philippines and “the west” doesn’t send plastic there.

Cut the whataboutism shit and pressure every country directly that is doing this.

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