Comment by kbenson | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kbenson | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

> I at least, in the UK wouldn't consider 'Ford' an American brand as we often get quite different Ford's to the ones sold in the US (Even when the name is the same, they often look totally different like the Focus).

Are you sure that's not old info? I know there used to be major differences (which was obvious if you watched World Rally back in the day, since you couldn't get one of those Ford Focus models in the US), but I had heard they were consolidating some, so looked it up. According to Wikipedia[1], about a decade ago Ford started consolidating it's US and UK models, and now I think maybe beyond a couple variations only being available in one are, they are mostly the same. (It also notes they closed 3 of their factories in Europe). For the Focus specifically, they unified the models in 2011[2].

That said, even if Ford is or was building European specific versions in Europe, I wouldn't consider that any more a UK car company and less a US car company that I would consider Honda and Toyota any less Japanese car companies and more US even through they have many plants in the US and significant portions of their cars and materials are built here to get around import tariffs. They have significant portions of their companies housed here, and US divisions doing R&D in some cases, but those are definitely Japanese companies.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_of_Europe#2011%E2%80%93pr...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus#Third_generation_(C...

Many of the smaller Ford cars seem to be designed by the European subsidiary and then either exclusively sold in Europe or later sold in America, for instance the Kuga which is now being sold as the Escape in the USA. Ford obviously aspired to unify across the two markets, but the differences between them are so large it doesn’t seem practical for most of their range. Ford in the USA seems to make most of their money from pickup trucks, with the Mustang brand as a significant extra, and both of those are negligible here. And now there’s enormous pressure from the European efficiency standards, so that Ford is licensing some EVs from VW. I wouldn’t be surprised if the European division was sold off like GM with Opel.

> Many of the smaller Ford cars seem to be designed by the European subsidiary and then either exclusively sold in Europe or later sold in America

Yes, as in 2011 when they unified their UK and US markets. That is, a decade ago. My understanding is that at that point you could get the same models in both areas, for the most part (this is when the US finally gor access to the sport models of the Focus, like the RS). The Mondeo came over earlier, in 2006 (as the Fusion).

The Ford Fusion (Mondeo in the UK, but functionally identical from what I can tell) outsold the Mustang 2:1 in the US in 2019 and 2020. Ford does sell more SUVs and trucks than cars, and also stopped selling many cars in the US 2020 (and some more, including the Fusion), but even the Ford Fiesta sold similar numbers (if still less) than the Mustang.

> Ford obviously aspired to unify across the two markets, but the differences between them are so large it doesn’t seem practical for most of their range.

Before everything started changing in 2020 (Ford is pulling out of the car market in the US except for select models), what models were UK specific? That is, not just a name difference?

Prior to 2011 there seemed to be major differences, and after 2019 there are obviously major differences, but it feels like people here are ignoring almost a decade of history just so they can justify the old perceptions they had which weren't accurate during that time.

> Before everything started changing in 2020 (Ford is pulling out of the car market in the US except for select models), what models were UK specific?

The Puma is Europe-specific and was launched in 2019.

I don't understand the case you're making, as you say Ford is killing off in the US almost all the vehicles that make up their existing market share in Europe. The point I was trying to make is the company is fundamentally split because of the different nature of the markets. FCA had the same issue.

My point was that both the original statement by the GGGGP "we often get quite different Ford's to the ones sold in the US" and yours of "exclusively sold in Europe or later sold in America" were for the most part only really accurate pre-2011. That the names were different in the different markets isn't really relevant in my opinion, as while there were major differences in the past that accurately describe those statements, that situation wasn't really true for a decade (for the most part, this is somewhat less accurate given information I found after I wrote this part, see below), until very recently, and the recent situation doesn't really match them either (where they've stated their desire to sell almost not cars and focus on trucks entirely in the US).

I just thought it was worth pointing out that the perception didn't seem to match reality on those points, and for an extended period of time, as they seemed to more closely describe the pre-2011 period.

That said, I've looked into this more, and there was some split during that period, from what I can see, just not in the direction from Europe to the US, and not in any of the models people are bringing up like that. The Mustang wasn't offered in the UK as a right hand drive model until 2015, and I'm not sure the Taurus ever was. I still think people's perception of this is slightly doscordant with the reality for a large chunk of time that's being ignored, but I'll readily admit at this point that it wasn't quite as unified as I was presenting.

As an American, I would gladly buy a Mondeo Estate if it had AWD 2.5T engine, like a stealth WRX. Unfortunately, Ford is probably correct in their assessment that Americans don't want anything other than C/SUVs and trucks.

The dominant purchasing model in Europe and the UK is to go to the dealership, choose the vehicle and options, place an order, and then wait some number of weeks for the vehicle to arrive.

The dominant purchasing model in the US has always been to go to a dealership and choose something that is on the lot. Car companies give the dealership an "allocation" and they place orders with the car company for the cars that will go to their lot - within the confines of that allocation. Ford might tell them that if they want 50 Mustangs they also have to take 7 Fiestas. And generally, that's the only way that Fiestas will end up on the lot - because the dealership doesn't want anything but the most popular vehicle. So, does anyone really know what Americans will buy? I don't think they do.

Now Covid and supply shortages have happened. Dealers have nothing on the lot; they are selling everything while it is inbound to the dealer. Ford, at least, is currently offering a $1000 discount on many vehicles if you place an order and wait - like people buy cars in Europe.

So maybe this is going to be permanent. Manufacturers will like this better. I think dealers like it too. But if it sticks, we will likely see changes. More color choices, more combinations of options. And then, hopefully, more vehicle varieties. Because you've eliminated the need for unwilling dealers to keep some of them on the lot.

By the way, you can get a Ford 2.3T with a 7-speed manual transmission and (traditional) 4 wheel drive in the new Bronco. That would make a sweet combo in a wagon (but with full-time AWD)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com