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Comment by hvs | Hacker News Reader

A few nits to pick as a woodworker:

1) You never save money building it yourself (at least not in comparison to a standard consumer option, like a chair or table from your local furniture store. This may hold up if you compare what you build to high-end hardwood furniture. But with the cost of tools, you're probably still losing money if this is just a hobby)

2) 90% of my enjoyment of woodworking is just being in my shop working. The results are almost secondary. It's a hobby for a reason.

3) I know professional woodworkers and they definitely do not spend most of their time building organization. They buy anything that will speed up production. I can spend 6 months building a dream workbench, they'll go to Benchcrafted and just buy one.

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There's something amazing/odd/horrifying about a world where it is generally no longer cheaper to do anything yourself.

I love to bake and cook. I can do so fairly frugally.

A supermarket frozen pie is still gonna be cheaper than anything I can make, especially if I count my time.

It's a benefit and goal of the modern global industrialized supply chain, but I cannot help feel that making me work a full time job to buy cheap things means we don't put enough economic value on people making things themselves.

Then again, I like not having to mine my own lithium, copper, etc. to get a computer.

> There's something amazing/odd/horrifying about a world where it is generally no longer cheaper to do anything yourself.

How? It’s pretty much the point and purpose of civilisation, to say nothing of industrialisation.

> we don't put enough economic value on people making things themselves.

The invisible hand is a middle finger. Always has been.

> > There's something amazing/odd/horrifying about a world where it is generally no longer cheaper to do anything yourself.

> How? It’s pretty much the point and purpose of civilisation, to say nothing of industrialisation.

Civilization isn't necessary for this to be true. It is even true in small scale societies. You can observe this whenever they get cutoff from each other: they end up technologically regressing. It is more expensive to do everything themselves, so they end up losing access to technologies.

The world where this was last true was when the common ancestor of us and neanderthals were still around.

really, it's about division of labor, aka "allow someone to become much, much better at making chairs than you, a non-chairmaker, will ever be."

When you get so good at making something that it takes you 0.1-0.5 of the time it takes someone less experienced/skilled, the cost of your labor becomes an diminishingly small part of the overall cost. That makes it ever more difficult for the unskilled person to ever be able to make it "cheaper", even if they consider their time to be free.

I agree with almost everything you have above except "a supermarket frozen pie is still gonna be cheaper than anything I can make." I'd say youd buy the same pie at a store (or at least not at most stores). The ingredients list might be the same, but somehow the gloppy, starched-gel filling in a mushy crust you can buy from Kroger is (hopefully) pretty far from any pie you'd make by hand yourself.

There is a middle ground between doing it yourself and buying industrialized food. In Italy, people really value food produced locally. There is even a slogan for it "kilometro zero", which means "buy food close to the source".

No wonder food tastes way better in Italy than in the US (in general), for example.

It’s not a bad thing by to make something yourself even if it costs more. The joy of making it is valuable. As well as the knowledge that your are a little more self-reliant.

Assembly lines and clever optimizations to workflow improve the efficiency of a factory somewhat over DIY. Machinery and automation makes a lot of things much cheaper through reducing labor at the cost of consuming non-renewable resources. Global supply chains waste even more resources to take advantage of underpriced labor from disadvantaged people.

If there was a real accounting of the externalities, the sweet spot for efficiency would involve a lot more numerous, smaller producers of goods that don't require big investments in highly specialized equipment. It would be reasonable to have a couple chairs made by a regional furniture maker if not for the cheapness of burning oil to send things around the world.

I certainly enjoy the perks of living in a post-agrarian society. I too love to cook (and garden) a bit, particularly so when I know that I have options for feeding myself that don't start with tending the fields all day.

It's a matter of quality. That frozen cake pales in comparison to something truly self-made. If I do some bread from basic ingredients (flour, sour dough, water), the result more often than not is great (after some experimenting) and costs maybe half of a n equally nice commercial product. Plus I spent my time in my kitchen and not out there shopping.

I mean, division of labor has been a thing since we started organizing in tribes, and maybe even before then (families?).

DIY starts making sense again if there are really high taxes or regulations or if money is scarce (i.e. a recession, money being just a method to organize labor efficiently and that breaks down during a liquidity crisis).

I think what you're worried about is the death of ownership and how people are increasingly starting to either sell their information or rent the things they need.

Being able to buy things for cheaper from elsewhere is just specialization and it's one of the first things that brought humans from the store age to more modern civilization.

> it's one of the first things that brought humans from the store age to more modern civilization.

This still has to happen, since we are now entirely in the store age ;-)

(nice typo)

If you can't costume certain food ingredients, it's likely you'll have to pay extra for a pie that meets your requirements, or bake it yourself.

> You never save money building it yourself

I agree, if what you want is a standard chair or table. But its common that I will want some piece of furniture that exactly fits some space or is otherwise unusual. For example, shelves that exactly fit my rooms.

It does help that I have somewhat low standards for appearance, and am quite content building things out of cheap wood.

You'd still probably be better off hiring a carpenter who already has the tools than doing it yourself. They can amortize the fixed costs over hundreds of projects.

Hiring a carpenter is very expensive. The cost of tools is tiny compared to the cost of their labor.

(I'm assuming that we're talking about saving money in a way that counts your own time doing something you enjoy as free.)

Exactly that. Top brand tools are expensive, but lower mid range these days is surprisingly cheap, and even for one off projects might "pay for itself". And they get cheaper. Labor costs are increasing. Obviously this comes with few caveats: a) you have to enjoy what you do, so the labor is free and you treat the time as me-time and b) you actually know what you're doing... running in to a disaster and then getting someone to fix it can be very-very expensive :)

A carpenter charges like $50/hr. A tablesaw alone would likely set you back more than the labor for some simple shelves. Then they can get better deals on material, they do higher quality work, and they do all the parts that aren't fun, like cleaning up at the end.

Also your time still has value even if you enjoy what you're doing. You could be doing other hobbies you enjoy more, or other aspects of the same hobby, or making money so that you could afford other opportunities instead. You may enjoy woodworking enough that you're willing to forego the value of that time to pursue it, but that doesn't make it any more economical.

With your estimates on payback time, I think you might be underestimating how many things I've built around the house ;)

Some examples:

* At least five sets of shelves, the biggest of which was https://www.jefftk.com/p/built-in-shelves

* Piano stand, so I could put my keyboard at just the right height on top of a wagon

* Folding monitor/TV, that is pretty sturdy and well protected when it's away: https://www.jefftk.com/p/folding-couch-monitor

I expect to keep doing this, and most of my tools aren't even halfway through their useful life.

There are some downsides, and you're right that a professional would make a lot of these things look better, but there are also serious downsides to working with a professional aside from the cost. It can be quite hard to get them to come when you want, they may not build exactly what you had in mind since communication is hard, and some people will cheat you (https://www.jefftk.com/p/brendin-lange-is-a-scammer)

Over your lifetime, you might need 5 or 6 sets of shelves. Buy yourself a porta-tablesaw for about $400-$500 (or cheaper on craiglist etc), learn to use it, and chances are that somewhere in the middle of your life, the cost equation will have flipped in your favor.

You don't need a tablesaw to make some shelves. You'd get very far with a hand held jigsaw. Can be stored in a drawer and costs around 100€ for a decent brand. You just need to be a lot more careful to get things perfectly straight, compared to a circular saw.

That values storage costs at zero. Certainly not true if you live in a duplex, let alone an apartment!

Absolutely fair point. That's definitely a very different situation. Probably one of the reasons I doubt I could ever live in such a situation, at least until I'm 75 or so :)

> You never save money building it yourself

This comes up in the DIY Audio community. It seems like the economic value proposition is very sensitive to what commercial segment you compare against. You absolutely can't beat low-end, mass-produced speakers on price, but it's easy to beat high-end, boutique speakers on price while getting close on quality.

A common money-saving trick is to buy cheap electronics from AliExpress or the likes and upgrade just the right components.

Often, these dirt cheap products are based on pretty decent ICs, but with corners cut on the surrounding circuitry. Sometimes, just changing some components to match the reference circuit can do wonders. Sometimes it is just a matter of replacing a counterfeit cap with a bigger counterfeit cap :)

Where can I find out more about this community?

Search for audiophile forums on the net. Most will have a dedicated area for DIYers.

> You never save money building it yourself

I know where you're coming from with this. I've been refurbing my house myself and I doubt I've saved that much because the "saving" has meant that I've been able to buy tools and, of course, better quality materials (e.g., more expensive flooring). I've also often chosen to go the extra mile with improvements where I might have scaled back if I were paying someone. I suppose you could argue this is a saving in that I've got more value out of the money I've spent by treating my own time as "free labour", but have I spent less? I doubt it.

Still, I don't know if it's entirely true in all circumstances. Here, for example, TheGeekPub (The 8-Bit Guy's brother) manages to save himself a ton by building his own electronics station rather than buying one or paying a carpenter to do it for him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KfWMJV7fQ0

But then, as becomes evident when you watch the video, he already owned all the tools he needed and just had to buy the materials, which were relatively inexpensive.

I think the results look great though, and it's clearly an extremely functional piece of furniture.

Like a lot of things in life, does it save you money? It really depends on your starting conditions (skill level, tools and facilities), and how much you want to invest in the project (both time and money).

There's also a timeline element to this.

I may not have saved myself any money at all by doing things myself when I was 25. But now I'm 57, and I can more or less fix anything in my house, and carry out more or less any changes I want or need to do, without outside assistance.

Me fixing that one toilet leak myself at 25 was probably a net cost to myself - tools & time considered. But at this point, when I can just remove a defunct radiant heating system from my house without even thinking of calling a plumber - by this point, I'm way ahead on cost. Similarly for electrical and basic framing work.

Plus, I manage to almost entirely avoid having to interview/audition contractors and deal with the stress of them (almost invariably) doing a worse job that I would have done myself.

Something to keep in mind is, despite those 30 years of experience that leads to one not needing to think about contacting a professional, knowing whether the work you're about to perform requires any permits/code; the lack of which might affect homeowners insurance claims or local code enforcement.

Part of the 30 years of experience is knowing when you need permits. That's why I got licensed by the state of NM to install my own solar array, and why I don't bother with permits for domestic plumbing here in NM (mostly).

No disagreement really.

I view it from my perspective as a hobbyist. I enjoy being in the shop working -- and I enjoy making stuff like my work bench, my saw tables and dust shields, my French cleat shelves, etc. I don't really expect to save money (if I do the numbers) so much as I expect to get more out of the process (skills, tools, etc.) than what I get buying something off the shelf.

And yes - a professional most likely values their productive time over time spent making jigs, etc. so they will often allocate capital wisely to save time!

I built my dream workbench. The commercial ones were too light. I wanted one that was 8 feet long, and 4 deep, that I could bolt a big vise to, and whale away at whatever was in the vise without the bench scittering across the floor.

It is build entirely from 4x4s for the legs, 2x4s for the rest of the frame, and 1x8 planks for the top and shelf. It's all held together with carriage bolts so it can be disassembled, and the top can be replaced. No plywood or glued sawdust.

It only took an hour or so to put together. Very happy with it. I later installed wall sockets in the front so power cords needn't be draped over the top.

The only problem was drilling the bolt holes perpendicular. I later acquired a drill press to solve that.

Wow, I built almost the identical thing a few years ago. Wanted a bench to put a small lathe onto while still having a copious amount of non-machine workspace. On the top I used 2x12's though. And (as a complete novice at the time just putting "lego blocks" together sourced from Home Depot), I just used regular screws to hold it together. That thing has moved with us for the past few moves. Super heavy. Also (not literally) bulletproof. Thanks for the description on your build.

Spent so much time planning out and figuring out how to build a custom workbench for a weird area (sometimes, you just need an airbrush booth in a bath/shower stall).

Ended up just buying something from Harbor Freight.

Sounds good. Post a sketch or plan somewhere ?

Not much to it. No sawing required other than the length. 6 4x4 vertical posts in a 3 by 2 configuration. A skirt around the top of 2x4s, and another 1/3 up from the ground. A 2x4 connecting the center posts at top and bottom. Then just plank the top, and plank 1/3 up to make a shelf. Drill & bolt.

Don't tighten the bolts until it is all together. Then set it in place and let it settle all the posts firmly on the floor, then tighten.

I left it au natural because I like the look and feel of sawn wood.

Hope you like yours as much as I like mine.

The benchtop is only 1 inch thick? That's not a heavy duty bench. My kitchen has thicker benchtops.

Your kitchen top is likely glued sawdust.

Yeah, GP really should have prefaced this with hobbyist woodworker delimma, because it did ring true for me as a, well, hobbyist woodworker, but it is definitely no where near true for professional woodworkers, joiners, cabinetmakers, furniture makers.

For them, there is no "end" even when completing a build. There's simply just the next client to tend to.

Agree completely, with the caveat that standard consumer options are usually absolute crap unless you're spending serious money. I'm probably still in the red on my workshop as a whole (damn you Festool) but once I started needing stacks of large canvases to paint on and shelving to store them, for example, the most expensive piece of kit (Domino XL) started rapidly paying itself off. If you're like me and want to do everything yourself, the payback is exponential the more you do and longer you do it. The possibilities compared to standard consumer options are downright overwhelming but once you get started, you find out a lot of the consumer stuff is easy to replicate with minimal skills or expense. Take a look at what it takes to make a decent sectional [1] for example - it's a lot of time but if you're frugal with fabric at your local uphostery store, the savings on labor are easily $1k+.

The problems set in the second you try to profit from it - professional [anything] is a completely different ballgame.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNX3Z2cfiJA

> 1) You never save money building it yourself

Yes and no.

The deciding factor besides fixed cost of tools is your time. Consider kitchen cabinets. Sure you can build them yourselves, but it'll take weeks, maybe a month of your time which when compared to ikea/box store cabinets you could spend more to save time. If you want to spend even more you can get some custom work done at the cost of having little to no effort needed.

In stuff like car/van furnishings I tend to believe you can save a lot since its not yet an IKEA like market.

Absolutely. A van buildout gets crazy pricey when you contract it out. It's relatively easy and cheap to DIY.

some companies are starting to produce systems in volume though, still pricey but it's probably gonna change

> But with the cost of tools, you're probably still losing money if this is just a hobby

What if you don't buy your own tools? Aren't there woodworking tools in maker-spaces?

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