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Comment by cm2187 | Hacker News Reader

To be honest the only way we will ever know is if the chinese would share the genomes of the viruses they stored in their lab, but who would trust them to do that? The express drive-by the WHO did in china served absolutely no purpose. I am ready to bet that all samples have been destroyed and the staff briefed (warned). I would even suspect the samples have not even been analysed by the Chinese themselves as it is better to not know than running the risk of some technician leaking such damaging information (and who would trust the Chinese authorities whatever they say anyway). So my money is on “we will never know”.

But like others, I have strong suspicions. It starts by an improbable coincidence (pandemic starting at the doorstep of a lab). The Chinese have acted guilty from the outset, by lying about the virus, arresting doctors, not allowing any investigation, and pushing crazy alternative theories.

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>The express drive-by the WHO did in china served absolutely no purpose.

I served it's purpose perfectly! It allowed China to pretend that an investigation was done.

To add to your point, it was a chain of improbable coincidences:

Pandemic starting at the doorstep of a lab (that is not located in remotely close proximity to the Yunnan caves where the previous SARS viruses were originating from)

Previous SARS virus outbreaks (SARS1 and MERS) had zoonotic reservoirs identified in months with dramatically fewer resources, but coincidentally, with vast resources and global efforts, no zoonotic reservoir identified for this virus.

Previous SARS virus outbreaks showed a gradual evolution of a virus to progressively becoming more infectious to humans, and equivalent genetic changes in the virus that can be traced. This one started out as highly infectious, and until several months in, mutations weren't very significant.

The Chinese Communist Party (not China, not the Chinese people, but the CCP) has expended far more energy suppressing research and scientific access than any form of investigation into the origins of the virus.

The CCP deliberately suppressed and arrested doctors publicly talking about the virus early on.

Edit:

Forgot to add that there is a direct paper trail (publicly available on data.gov) of grant documents which specify that the funding will be used in WIV for research of bat coronaviruses with (and I quote from the paper) "humanized mice". Humanized mice, in this context, are mice genetically engineered to have human ACE2 receptors lining their respiratory tissue. In what was the most infuriating moment of public testimony I have ever seen, Dr. Fauci argues that infecting humanized mice with animal viruses (resulting in animal viruses that can more easily infect humans) is NOT gain of function research. He was playing an obvious semantic game, where his definition of GOF is the far narrower concept of making an existing human infecting virus more infectious..... Seriously, I was a big fan of the guy until that single bit of testimony. Now i know he's a lying bureaucrat more than he is a scientist.

https://reporter.nih.gov/search/xQW6UJmWfUuOV01ntGvLwQ/proje...

> Previous SARS virus outbreaks showed a gradual evolution of a virus to progressively becoming more infectious to humans, and equivalent genetic changes in the virus that can be traced. This one started out as highly infectious, and until several months in, mutations weren't very significant.

Both of these statements are so inaccurate. It took many years before scientists were certain what the reservoir was for SARS, and there were already different lineages of the virus at the Wuhan market!

You are mad at the CCP for putting out misleading information. You are guilty of the same thing!

Imagine trying to say that a statement you disagree with is equivalent to large scale attempts to prevent the discovery of the origin of a disease, causing more death

The Chinese didn't do anything that we wouldn't have done. In fact, they took better steps than we did, as far as the pandemic is concerned.

Of course the dude had concerns, anyone with half a brain would explore all of the possible origins and theories. But the lab leak theory is just that - one theory that could explain the situation at hand.

The problem is that too many people have put far too much stock in the lab leak theory to the point that it's being treated as the most likely source of origin, but that's just not what the evidence says.

I'd like to think we don't put doctors in jail when they raise the alarm on a new virus.

Well, we do block them on Facebook and Twitter.

What are you talking about (serious)? Dissent is legal and will not result in imprisonment in the US.

I don't even subscribe to Facebook or Twitter by choice. I definitely wouldn't subscribe to imprisonment by choice, haha. If you're concerned about these platforms controlling their content privately, don't use them.

Assange?

Well, the US seems hellbent on shipping one journalist who broke no law in US to their torture chambers. Until that's sorted out you just can't claim moral superiority.

Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown.

This is of course a joke, come on you guys. Nobody seriously compares jailing people to blocking them on social media.

It’s the thought that counts, the social media platforms that ban you would gladly put you in a gulag if they could.

We just fire them, when they complain about hospital administrators sending them into COVID wards without PPE.

Sure, and I'd like to think we don't run scientific tests on black people without their knowledge or consent, but that doesn't line up either.

If you think the U.S. is above unlawfully detaining a doctor, then I've got sad news for you.

Great argument... if the US did this, I'm sure no one would demand an investigation... /s

US did this many times. The investigations ended up like they usually do in US, starting from My Lai - in the best case they’ll find a single scapegoat and that’s it.

I'm not claiming the us didnt do this. I'm disputing that people would stay silent when the us does this.

The us does do this and has large and growing domestic opposition movements.

People don’t stay silent, but the way the US works, it simply doesn’t matter.

If we had 100% incontrivertible evidence COVID came from a CHinese lab, I can 100% guarantee you nothing would happen to china.

If we had 100% evidence it came from an US lab, nothing would happen either. Your point being?

That doesn't mean knowing isn't worthwhile? Like knowing about FISA courts did nothing to the feds but its worth knowing about

You mean Li Wenliang, the doctor who was eventually decorated - by Chinese government - for speaking up? He was never put to jail. That’s another case of anti-Chinese propaganda for you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang

Born 12 October 1985 Beizhen, Jinzhou, Liaoning, China

Died 7 February 2020 (aged 34) Wuhan, Hubei, China

Cause of death COVID-19

Yes, all of that suspicious propaganda about the Chinese government's treatment of dissidents. The decoration came after his death at 34 years old.

> He died from the disease on 7 February 2020, at age 34.[8][9] A subsequent Chinese official inquiry exonerated him, and the Communist Party of China formally offered a "solemn apology" to his family and revoked the admonishment of him.

What actually happened is not what the media reported? The china in the media is not real. Its a fabrication,synthesized by the CCP who is in control of all chinese news sources.

On the ground, the news of the virus was first supressed by local officials, allowing lots of people to attempt a "escape" from wuhan, when they got informed by relatives that something was up. When the pot boiled over, the bejing government stepped in and "walled" in wuhan. But they told that first and acted later, allowing thousands to "escape" ( they boasted about this on social media, thats how we know) and they escaped into lots of other countries - because while national flights were cancelled, international flights were still allowed.

This thing has been a lecture in disastrous disaster management - nothing more, nothing less. Its proof that totalitarian states even suck at the one thing they claim to be good at- being totalitarian.

What the Chinese do is different in that when the government orders the people to do something, they actually do it.

Depending on what you think about the virtues of government, that's something between a pretty good thing or the worst horror you can imagine.

Do we really have to reduce it to such a simplistic scale as "government good" vs "government bad"? It's like trying to discuss obesity in terms of whether food is good or bad.

I don’t think Americans understand the government having that type of involvement tbh. It’s just so foreign a concept to us as a whole. It’s kind of arrogant tbh.

Wait, what is arrogant? Having a government that orders people directly? Or not understanding such a government?

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