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Comment by nonameiguess | Hacker News Reader

I know a lot of people who "retired" before 40. They joined the military and stayed in.

A friend of mine "retired" from the military at 38. She joined right out of high school. The Navy put her through med school, then she served as a ship doctor for over 10 years, traveling to dozens of countries. She "retired" with a military pension and an MD, having never spent a penny on med school. She works basically part-time now at a local healthcare provider. Did that come across as jealous? Well, I am. We all told her she was stupid to join the military, and now we're all still paying off student debt, and she's livin' her best life. :(

If it makes you feel better it sounds like your friend got the golden path; VERY few people hit the milestones and get accepted into the programs that allow that career path. STA-21 and/or the Public Health College were in that path if she got retirement credit for going to school and there are very few spots in those programs.

Lol, you mean for men it's hard to get in. A woman or minority can just walk right in.

I know the feeling. But that doesn't mean that you were wrong, or that your advice was bad. It's safe to recommend your friends not to play the loterie if the goal is to derive predictable revenue. It doesn't mean that everyone lose at the game.

Your friend and people drawing conclusion from her anecdote will end up with beliefs typical of the Gettier problem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

Correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding on vocations, but didn't it also require quite a bit of luck that she got to take on this vocation in the Navy?

If you are a decently talented software engineer and you can't match or exceed a non-specialist MD in earning power then you are doing something wrong. Especially in the current market.

Sure, but you can NOT retire with a real pension at 38!

Maybe not a pension, but you could retire at 38 with millions of dollars invested and earning a passive income.

the NPV of a Commander in the Navy is 1.3M dollars at 38...no risk

Excellent comment. I’m now 70 and well-to-do. But I was a fool to go into private enterprise with all its interpersonal dishonesty. Government jobs at the national labs had superior NPV’s— the pensions are absurdly expensive taxes on struggling workers when carried out to the 85-year typical lifespans of workers. There were layoffs, true. But I understand the psychology and passivity of persons who managed to get themselves laid off.

Apart from the inconsequential risk of death or disability of course.

You also have that risk as a civilian. In some places in the US quite more so than on a warship...

You also have the choice to take action to avoid risk. That choice is not available in the military. You're trading a lot of freedom over those 20 years. (Did I mention how expensive getting divorced is?)

you guys are kind of using NPV ambiguously. You mean that when you retire at 38, the NPV of your retirement plan at that point (for when you are 39, 40, ... etc.) is $1.3M, and if you haven't retired yet then it's really a FV? what discount rate are you using?

or did you mean the NPV when joining at age 18 is... see what I mean?

> no risk

Military retirement is worth like a minimum of ~$700k for an E-7, before tricare. It's worth like $1.3M for an O-5. People who seperate from service at like 12 years astound me.

Edit- People who seperate thinking they can earn more money on the outside. People who seperate for family, mental health, or similar reasons make total sense.

I separated at 11 years from the AF as an air traffic controller; September 2023 would have been 20 for me. For the past three years I have been working for home as a senior data scientist - my life has been far better as a civilian.

RPA / Drone flying community is the exception. literally doubled income overnight trading a uniform for polo and khakis, same job, same trailer, same airframe, different airspace

Wait, so are you saying there's non-military people flying drones that are flying in other countries? Although I suppose that last bit is an assumption.

no, nonmilitary actions. think ferry operators, they pilot within friendly airspace in a non-military mode.

And you’re out at 50, replaced by a 22-year-old.

Yes I always considered reenlistment to be committing to 20 years minimum. I got out after 4 years, but some of my friends stayed in because they were lazy and institutionalized lol. Then of course they decide to get out later because they hate it. Two of the worst decisions they’ll make.

What’s the math look like if they roll those 12 years into a fed position?

It works out pretty well I've been told. But there are plenty of dead ends in Federal service, where people are underutilized and undervalued, but last it out for their pension. Some jobs just don't exist in commercial settings, and it can be really hard to re-adjust to new work.

How does that work out, mechanically, does the military provide a pension at 40? Is it just that you have very little costs when living on-base?

You can start drawing a DOD pension after you've worked for 20 years (so potentially as young as 37). That also gets you tricare (health insurance for you and your family).

It's not rare for people to double-dip: do your 20 in the military, then go work as a teacher or DOD civilian or something that'll give you a second pension.

If you don't blow all your expendable income on a sports car financed at 30% APR, it's also possible to build up a good nest egg by the time you retire. You can also take advantage of other veterans benefits. A friend of mine got more money from his GI bill benefits (tuition + stipend) than from the actual salary he made during his army years.

Quick edit: the military has a mishmash of different retirement plans depending on when you signed up. I think the most recent one is more defined contribution focused and makes it harder to get money before you're in your 60s

>If you don't blow all your expendable income on a sports car financed at 30% APR

Or knock up a stripper, or lose half your net worth when you divorce your dependa, or all the other bad life decisions that tend to plague people in that line of work.

If you can get through the first 4yr unscathed you're probably on a good path.

There's also the risk you could get sent to a war zone and get your legs or other parts blown off. Though i have the impression that's national guard work now.

This. Of course, you can mitigate the danger by choosing an appropriate job. I did four years as a Grunt and fortunately didnt sustain any injuries, but I've been in a truck and watched the guy in front of me lose three limbs. I've watched a friend who was next to me on patrol take a few rounds and die while we tried to get him out of there, and I've seen a truck roll over in a shit trench and the gunner drown in feces. Fast forward 11 years, 10 people from my company have committed suicide.

So, for anyone just chasing DoD pensions and GI bill benefits, make sure you end up as a lithographer or some shit.

These decisions plague people from all walks of life. Take a look at Bill Gates and Andrew Cuomo.

My wife's grandfather did almost exactly this: navy pilot (I forget the exact details but he had at least one of those "firsts" like "landing on an aircraft carrier at night"), survived WWII, got out, was a teacher for 20+ years, and developed a keen interest in equities at exactly the right period for that.

As I understand it, the flipside of this was that not very many people in his (very early) cohort survived, in case someone is thinking of this as "easy government money".

Might not even need to do 20. There was a time around a decade ago when they allowed an early retirement after 15 years. I don't know the details, I guess the pension was less. I believe the early retirement option comes up from time to time, possibly when the military is looking to down size.

That was the force draw down after the end of the Cold War. It did not go well for the Army, at least, and they had to boost recruitment in the late 90's to keep up with normal attrition.

There's still occasional early retirement for certain MOS's I believe. Earlier this year I believe some USMC tankers got hit with a reorganization and at least some were allowed out under the early retirement authority.

See my other comment, it was 2012 to 2018.

Under the old system your retirement pay was 2.5% per year served. So 37.5% instead of the 50% you would get at 20 years. Last I know of early retirement happening was after the Gulf War in the mid 90s when everything was downsizing. Wouldn't be surprised if it was happening now too though.

I looked it up, it was 2012 to 2018 (unless it was cancelled before the date in the ALARACT). Not sure if it was all the military or just the Army, though. Being in the Army, I didn't concern myself with the lesser branches ;)

https://www.benning.army.mil/garrison/dhr/content/PDF/ALARAC...

20 year mark is key. Sign up when you're 18, do 20 years, you're now only 38 which is < 40.

Edit: if you're super ambitious, you take the skills from your military specialization (pilot, nuke engineer, etc) to the civilian world and work another 20 years. you're now 58 which is still younger than the typical 65 for retirement, but now on 2 pensions or 1 gov't pension plus a really nice portfolio.

At the national labs, you can basically walk out with proprietary technology, as long as it’s not classified, with many modules and processes dual use, where the civilian use has yet to be exploited. I’ve seen this done many times. Proof of concept is extremely expensive for the gov’t: rack mounted heavy-duty modules, premium subsystems bought from market leaders. A good engineering team can whittle costs by 90%.

The most marketable skills are going to be in logistics, or procurement.

Then - the corps (corporations) come looking for you.

Does signing up at 50 work?

Usually not over 35 unless special circumstances such as active war or rare skill, e.g. doctor. Plenty of middle aged signed up for 911 war.

depends on if we're in an entrenched shooting war on the ground needing frontline infrantry. usually, that type of service doesn't come with a sign-up bonus

It used to. As soon as you retired you started getting paid every month for the rest of your life. At 20 years you make 50% of your base pay, so you say you join at 18, 20 years is 38. You make it to E-8 and now you retire. That's currently around $2750 a month.

If you join now there is an age it kicks in I think, rather than immediate.

Plus you still have access to things like the commissary if you live near a base. As well as medical insurance for life.

About to execute this right now and I see some interesting numbers being thrown around for the NPV of my pension.

The numbers you are seeing are really the top of the iceberg; my actual take home as a retired E7 is likely to be about twice what the pay numbers would tell you due to VA disability.

So after a take home of around $72k/year and essentially free medical for my family for life, as well as my children’s college paid for (my degree was paid while on AD so they get my GI Bill), we still need to factor in Space A flights, tax free shopping, cheaper gas, gym access, beach accesses, cheaper groceries, etc. etc.

The most recent numbers I saw were something north of 2 million for anyone E6+ who gets 100% VA disability, which is pretty common.

That said, I rarely recommend the career to people. The costs incurred really aren’t worth it unless you get the equivalent of a lottery ticket.

> free medical for my family for life, as well as my children’s college paid

My dad was career Air Force. The free family medical ended when I was 18. PX privileges ended at 21. No money at all for college.

All of that is conditional of course; you are correct in suggesting that those benefits end at those times typically.

Some situations change that; one of my children is special needs and may never be independent so would stay in my healthcare for life. The transfer of GI Bill is relatively recent but if your father was even 0% disabled (I don’t think there’s a vet that isn’t) California would have waived your tuition to any state school after you became a resident. There are other situations that result in free college.

Having been in the military myself (albeit a short stint) it's absolutely a viable option, but just be sure you choose the right path for yourself. And be aware of the obvious downsides.

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