Jewish Problems (2011)
arxiv.org
arxiv.org
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Jewish Problems (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28136729 - Aug 2021 (77 comments)
Jewish Problems (2011) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22896047 - April 2020 (33 comments)
These problems were designed to prevent Jewish people from passing (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15424117 - Oct 2017 (170 comments)
Jewish problems (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10923934 - Jan 2016 (95 comments)
Jewish Problems - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4759642 - Nov 2012 (69 comments)
Jewish problems - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3096793 - Oct 2011 (187 comments)
One year this would mean that the intake would be solely one ethnicity, and it was not white.
So the policy was abandoned for a more rounded approach.
These days the medical schools try very hard to make the population of graduating doctors look like the population they are going to treat.
This drives the (rich) parents of white students who just miss out getting into medical school extremely irate and litigious. But so far it has withstood attack.
The results are not achieved by different standards for graduation, but by different standards for admission.
So > 70 yo graduates?
I recall reading about some researchers that studied patients at a large walk-in clinic in a low income area. Both the set of patients and the set of doctors were diverse. Patients were randomly assigned to doctors.
What they found was that patients were significantly more likely to follow the doctor's instructions after the visit (such as getting prescriptions filled, following the doctor's home care instructions, or coming back for follow ups) if the doctor was the same race/ethnic group as the patient.
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/novembe...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/ivy-leagues-grade-inflation...
I guess the other possibilities are that the students have gotten better or have optimized for the system?
This author says that the students were complaining and not because they were getting better.
https://qz.com/157579/confession-of-an-ivy-league-teaching-a...
This article says that the students haven't gotten better either.
https://uvachemistry.com/2014/12/13/the-causes-and-consequen...
This was the exact pretext used by Harvard in the early 20th century to reduce the number of Jews in attendance.
> As the sociologist Jerome Karabel writes in “The Chosen” (Houghton Mifflin; $28), his remarkable history of the admissions process at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, that meritocratic spirit soon led to a crisis. The enrollment of Jews began to rise dramatically. By 1922, they made up more than a fifth of Harvard’s freshman class. The administration and alumni were up in arms. Jews were thought to be sickly and grasping, grade-grubbing and insular. They displaced the sons of wealthy Wasp alumni, which did not bode well for fund-raising. A. Lawrence Lowell, Harvard’s president in the nineteen-twenties, stated flatly that too many Jews would destroy the school: “The summer hotel that is ruined by admitting Jews meets its fate . . . because they drive away the Gentiles, and then after the Gentiles have left, they leave also.”
> The difficult part, however, was coming up with a way of keeping Jews out, because as a group they were academically superior to everyone else. Lowell’s first idea—a quota limiting Jews to fifteen per cent of the student body—was roundly criticized. Lowell tried restricting the number of scholarships given to Jewish students, and made an effort to bring in students from public schools in the West, where there were fewer Jews. Neither strategy worked. Finally, Lowell—and his counterparts at Yale and Princeton—realized that if a definition of merit based on academic prowess was leading to the wrong kind of student, the solution was to change the definition of merit. Karabel argues that it was at this moment that the history and nature of the Ivy League took a significant turn.
> The admissions office at Harvard became much more interested in the details of an applicant’s personal life. Lowell told his admissions officers to elicit information about the “character” of candidates from “persons who know the applicants well,” and so the letter of reference became mandatory. Harvard started asking applicants to provide a photograph. Candidates had to write personal essays, demonstrating their aptitude for leadership, and list their extracurricular activities.
Somewhat less snarkily, I was under the impression that medical schools hate not graduating their students, so once you're in, basically anybody who can physically survive the grind will become a doctor. Is this incorrect?
Doesn't that suck for everyone?
In Germany, there is a (apparently) large generation gap of countryside doctors. The old ones retire, but no one young shows up to replace them, even though they are very well paid. But what 30 year old would want to live and work in a village of 5000?
Is that scenario not applicable in the US, or are the jobs you mentioned simply still considered a better deal.
Married with kids and want to move to the country to settle down. Isn’t that what a lot of 30-year-olds do? Especially middle class people like doctors.
(That's speaking in broad generalizations, of course. This isn't the usual case, but there are broad parts of (especially Eastern) Germany that are depopulating rapidly since there are so few job opportunities)
https://breitbandmessung.de/kartenansicht has a scrollable map, but it doesn't say from when the measurements are, nor if "no coverage" means that there is no coverage, or if they have performed no measurements there.
But you're probably lucky to get into the double digits of Mbps. Note how the whole map tops out at ">= 50Mbps".
So IMO not applicable.
[0] https://www.handelsblatt.com/technik/it-internet/spacex-toch...
I believe they will make it by 2024 or perhaps a bit sooner (if Starship development goes well - that ship has an enormous cargo capacity to LEO), but it isn't an option for most people yet.
https://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loan-repayment/nhsc-rural-community-lo...
But those programs generally only apply to physicians who have finished residency. We really need to increase funding for residency programs in general so that those are no longer a limiting factor in training new physicians.
Being picky on specialty, or location, is going to make a match more difficult. A Competitive specialty like Ortho, Radiology, or Radiation Oncology trying for a big city that is popular would be a hard fit. Due to how few Radiation Oncology programs there are, even a class valedictorian may not get in - there are just not that many slots.
A less desirable specialty like family practice or internal medicine would be a much easier fit for a lower ranked candidate.
So you know that the bar was lowered if they aren't from ethnicity X. Interesting. Is that the doctor you want for you, or your loved ones?
> The results are not achieved by different standards for graduation, but by different standards for admission.
That's debatable.
The fundamental problem with medicine that creates these dynamics is artificial supply constraints created by licensing regimes (I've yet to figure out how or why a MD is so much better than a PA for family medicine). Absent that, the market would just figure things out.
There's no particular reason to believe high test scores are 100% correlated with future doctor quality given that lots of other factors go into being a doctor - and yet medical schools have historically relied on this. On the other hand, there's also no particular reason to believe the best doctors will be equally distributed across whatever splicing and dicing of the population you perform.
This is the key callout I think. It allows you to address representation problems while sidestepping opposing arguments about graduate quality.
Do it in rounds, unfilled spots open up to anyone.
If your child really wants to be a doctor but can’t get a spot, well, I’m sure that increased demand for medical spots means you’re willing to pay more, and the University can use that to expand their medical program. Or you can send them to another university.
This seems like a reasonable approach to improving systemic inequalities without causing systemic harm.
There is still the question as to whether certain admission standards are actually correlated with graduate ability. I wonder if there is a way to find out?
But yeah, I think the difficulty of sociology makes it tough to reason about these issues in a comprehensive, logical way. And it's so hard to experimentally prove _anything_ when proving the counterfactual is "well, we'd need to split reality into two and wait 50 years".
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/at-trial-harva...
"Under the Immgration Act, migrants who entered Australia between 1901 and 1958 could be asked to take a dictation test.
To pass the test, they needed to write 50 words in any European language, as dictated by an immigration officer. After 1905, the officer could choose any language at all. A Chinese immigrant, for example, could be asked to write out 50 words in French, Italian or another language.
Few migrants could pass the test in these circumstances. This meant that it was easy to fail an applicant if they were from an ‘undesirable’ country, had a criminal record, had medical issues or were thought to be ‘morally unfit’.
If an applicant failed the test, they could be deported by the Australian Government."
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection/immigration-and-ci...
Basically everything you've stated is just called immigration policy.
I personally think we're too hard on skilled migrants and too lenient on relationship visas. But I'm sure I don't have a properly informed opinion, just a hunch based on my experiences.
"Funny", I'm a skilled immigrant with multiple friends whose marriage was torn apart by European immigration bureaucrats deciding theirs was fake, which if you see it play out in real life even once feels unnecessarily cruel beyond comparison, so I'm really wondering what kind of "experiences" you base your hunch on.
Have had friends struggle on skilled visas, whilst relationship visas with no schooling or skills all get approved with minimal fuss. My preference would be to make skilled migration easier.
Would have thought from a nation standpoint we'd want to attract talent.
Charges of sedition, vandalism or corruption are a favorite tactics against dissenters.
It led to an outcry and the policy was modified.
> Among problems that were used by the department to blackball unwanted candidate students, these problems are distinguished by having a simple solution that is difficult to find.
Could someone explain the mechanism here? I can understand how this would hurt any relatively unprivileged group, by requiring certain "gotchas" that have nothing to do with people's innate ability or level of education.
But is there anything further? I.e. were these problems well-known among students who had already passed through an unfairly discriminatory gauntlet?
One of the methods they used for doing this was to give the unwanted students a different set of problems on their oral exam.
The introduction adds that the Jewish (or otherwise "undesirable") students "were given these problems one after another until they failed one of them, at which point they were given a failing mark."
One, you only give the hardball problems to people you want to filter out, as the paper mentions.
Two, you use hardball problems with a simple solution, so that if people make a scandal / complain to political authorities, you can point to the simple solution and "No, look, it's actually really easy, these people just weren't good enough!".
I get that higher ed has a branding problem. I don't care. If you want society support, you play by society rules.
Further, they're doing a fine job of destroying their own brands without any outside help.
Berkeley created and maintained an elite institution without being a finishing school for trust fund babies. Until they had their funding ganked, of course.
There was a shortcut: anybody with 9+ points for the first two (written and oral math) would be unconditionally admitted without even needing to take the two remaining exams (and risking a failure). There were other shortcuts not relevant here.
The written exam is 6 problems. You get a point for every one solved. Naturally the difficulty is increasing exponentially with the 5th and 6th being very hard (you only need to solve one of these to get the maximum 5 points, they are the same difficulty but one is usually an equation and another is a geometry problem). The first 4 problems are still easy for a good high school student, the 5th/6th requires extra preparation or going to a special math school. (some examples http://kvant.mccme.ru/1991/02/p65.htm )
The oral exam is two questions on a "ticket" and a problem. The list of questions is known beforehand and they are generic topics like "What are the properties of triangles?", the ticket is literally a piece of paper one pulls from a pile, face down. And each question and the problem give a point to add to 2. So you can only fail if you don't answer any question and don't solve the problem. Again, it's an easy 4 points with the two questions (out of total 50 or so) answered.
So what happens when somebody answered correctly the both ticket questions? He or she already has 4 points and the problem will decide between 4 and 5. If he or she has 5 for the written math (the written test is in front of the examiner) it does not matter, this person is already admitted with 9 points so the problem will be a simple one to save time. If the written score is 3, it will be a hard problem that this person is likely not going to solve (harder than the 4th problem in the written exam but not as hard as 5th or 6th) that will make the total math 7 points and limit that person's entrance exam score to 12 points, likely not letting them in because you really should not be in the math department if you could only solve 3 easy problems in the written exam.
The 4 points for the written math is the most peculiar, especially if one had good work done on the 5th problem even without solving it ultimately. If this person solves the problem in the oral math, it's the automatic admission. So a tricky problem comes out. You cannot give the same problem you give to the one with 3 points because it will be too easy. You cannot really give another 5th or 6th problem from the written math because it takes an hour to solve so they give a problem that is as hard as the 5th/6th but can be solved in minutes, giving a fair chance for an automatic admission. If the candidate fails it it's not the end, they continue with 8 points and still a fair chance for admission.
This is not related to Jews, as far as I know, I know people who were not Jewish and got these problems after getting 4 points for the written math. This is to set the uniform standard for the accelerated admission: five written exam problems and two theoretical questions.
Alexander Shen also writes about the discrimination in acceptance to Mekh-mat: http://3038.org/press/shen.pdf
PS. These people you mentioned are from the St. Petersburg uni, where I have never been, it could be different there. I can only speak for the Moscow.
Ivy League US Ratio
Jewish 17.2% 2.4% 7.16
Asian 19.6% 5.3% 3.71
White (incl. Jewish) 50.3% 61.5% 0.82
Hispanic 11.4% 17.6% 0.65
Black 7.8% 12.7% 0.61
White (non-Jewish) 33.1% 59.1% 0.56
The numbers don't sum to 100% because I did not include multi-ethnic students, a few minor ethnicities (American-Indian, Pacific Islander..), and students categorized as "unknown" or "other" by the universities. Data on university undergraduate demographics was taken from the universities own diversity reports. Jewish representation was was gathered from http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/, https://forward.com/jewish-college-guide/, and https://ejewishphilanthropy.com/how-many-jewish-undergraduat..., taking the lowest estimate when sources conflicted. ejewishphilanthropy.com (eJP) points out flaws in Hillel's data gathering (e.g. showing Harvard as 30% Jewish, when eJP found it only 16%) Hillel seems to have since fixed these flaws, as the estimates they now give are in-line with those of eJP.No correction has been made to look at only the college-age population of the US, or only at the Northeastern US where all the Ivy League universities are located, so that may be a source of some bias.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota#United_States
When you couple that with the fact that the data shows that "white supremacy" at college universities is kind of a myth and that there is another "supremacy" altogether, albeit one we're not really allowed to talk about in "polite society," you can expect a lot of downvotes.
The text doesn't say it, but the commenter is suspect because they should know better than to imply the unspeakable.
Probably also likely a second generation immigrant effect and there's a lot if people in Asia.
Ivy League US Ratio
Jewish* 17.2% 2.1% 8.21
Asian 19.6% 7.1% 2.75
White 33.1% 51.6% 0.64
Hispanic 11.4% 19.4% 0.59
Black** 7.8% 16.5% 0.47
The relative placement of the bottom 3 groups changes, but their individual representation ratios remain approximately the same. Any conclusions about discrimination that you could draw from the first set of numbers, you can draw from this one - the differences are negligible.As for there being many people in Asia, that is irrelevant - I excluded international students when calculating Ivy League demographics, so only the US population is relevant.
*I assumed the same age structure for non-Jewish and Jewish whites.
**The census data table gives the total Black population as 47 million for 2017, while https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta... gives only 40 million, despite citing census.gov as its source. I don't know where the disparity comes from, and that's the only place I've seen such a high estimate of the US Black population.
[1] https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/popest/tables/2010-... 2019 estimate
But there is discrimination against asians. So $GP's evidence isn't satisfactory.
If you contend they are discriminated against despite holding at least 6 of the 8 presidencies, and despite being by far the most over-represented group, I assume you have some fantastically strong supporting evidence.
Maybe small in the US as a whole, but in the Ivy League they are 17.2% - the 3rd largest ethnicity, almost as large as Hispanics and Blacks combined.
But lets suppose they are being discriminated against. That would require some other group, that makes up a significant % of the Ivy League, to be unfairly privileged (otherwise it would have a negligible effect on the % of Jewish students).
So which group do you think that is? You said Asians are discriminated against, so they're out. Maybe you think there's too many Hispanic or Black students, despite being 11x less likely to be accepted into the Ivy League? Or is it non-Jewish whites, the most under-represented group, that are also the most privileged?
There’s still discrimination against Asian applicants and they’re also over represented so I don’t think the data shows that it’s necessarily stopped.
https://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/brown-universit...
http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/columbia-univers...
http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/cornell-universi...
http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/dartmouth-colleg...
http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/harvard-universi...
http://www.hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/university-o...
http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/princeton-univer...
http://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/yale-university
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges has a decent summary of other demographic data.
For the US, I used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...
Unfortunately I could not find many numbers from eJP, except those in the https://ejewishphilanthropy.com/how-many-jewish-undergraduat... article. Perhaps you will have better luck searching.
https://newcriterion.com/issues/2012/10/the-fifth-problem-ma...
Unfortunately the current paywall looks pretty insurmountable, any mirrors would be appreciated.
By early 1948, however, Australian policy had changed and a family of rich Jews ... were not the migrants Australia was looking for.
In postwar Australia, Jews were tarred with a mix of old-fashioned anti-Semitism and suspicion they were either communists or Zionists attacking British forces in Palestine. Things came to a crisis in January 1947 when an old ferry called the Hwa Lien docked in Sydney carrying 300 stateless Jews from Shanghai. Sydney's The Sun newspaper claimed that criminal syndicates run by communists had backed the Jewish immigrants and hinted that Jewish refugees had collaborated with the Japanese. The Sun editorialised: "The danger of infiltration by professional trouble makers, whether Jewish terrorists or Communist agents, will arouse the natural suspicion of all who wish to see Australia kept Australian."
Arthur Calwell, Australia's immigration minister following World War II, was a champion of mass migration (although famously within the confines of the White Australia Policy) and had initially been sympathetic to the plight of Jewish refugees. He let the Hwa Lien unload its passengers. But in the heated aftermath he quietly imposed a secret quota on the number of Jews who would be given entry on any future migrant ships."
https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/harry-triguboffs-dark-se...