Hacker News Reader

Comment by c7DJTLrn | Hacker News Reader

Catching child pornographers should not involve subjecting innocent people to scans and searches. Frankly, I don't care if this "CSAM" system is effective - I paid for the phone, it should operate for ME, not for the government or law enforcement. Besides, the imagery already exists by the time it's been found - the damage has been done. I'd say the authorities should prioritise tracking down the creators but I'm sure their statistics look much more impressive by cracking down on small fry.

I've had enough of the "think of the children" arguments.

View on HN

The algorithms and data involved are too sensitive to be discussed publicly and the reasoning is acceptable enough to even the most knowledgeable people. They can't even be pressured to prove that the system is effective at it's primary purpose.

This is the perfect way to begin opening the backend doors.

The algorithm is actually public: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Secu... From an intellectual point of view it's interesting to learn about.

I agree with the rest of your points. The problem is that we don't know if Apple implemented this algorithm correctly, or even this algorithm at all, because the source code isn't subject to review and, even it were the binary cannot be proved to have been built from such source code. We also don't have proof that the only images being searched for are child abuse images as they claim.

Security by obscurity has never been particularly effective, and there are some articles which allege that detection algorithms can be defeated fairly easily.

I’m furious. My top app has 250,000 uniques a day.

I’m considering a 24h black out with a protest link to apple’s support email explaining what they’ve done.

I wonder if anyone else would join me?

We need to get organized first. We need a support platform where we can coordinate these type of actions. It's in my todo list, but if anyone can get this started please do so

There isn't any reason to believe the CSAM hash list is only images. The government now has the ability to search for anything in your iCloud account with this.

Why is it always "think of the children"? It gets people emotional? What about terrorism, murder, or a litany of other heinous violent crimes?

I invite you to look up "The Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse". Child Pornography is but one of the well trodden paths to remove privacy and security.

And remember, a minor who takes pictures of him or herself is an offender.

As it has to be. Because there's no defense against the possession of it, you don't want a situation where a person under 18 can take pictures of him or herself, send it to an adult unsolicited, and then call the police and not suffer any consequences.

That doesn't make any sense and it's not how it works in a number of other countries. You could (for example) make it illegal to send these pictures instead.

That's how it works in the U.S. It's called "strict liability."

People own their bodies. Taking pictures of yourself, if you're a child, isn't child porn any more than touching yourself is molestation/assault.

Children don't need to be hit with "strict liability".

A person trying to frame someone else of a serious crime commits a serious offense, yes.

But that's a logically separate concept from the production or possession of child pornography, which that person must not be regarded as committing if the images are of him or herself.

The idiotic law potentially victimizes victims. A perpetrator can threaten the child into denying the existence of the perpetrator, and into falsely admitting to having taken pictures him or herself. It's exactly like taking the victims of human trafficking and charging them with prostitution, because the existence and whereabouts of the traffickers couldn't be established.

Whoever came up with this nonsense was blinded by their Bible Belt morality into not seeing the unintended consequences.

We have to deal with the reality of our legal system.

Note that this message is substantially different from what communicated with "As it has to be".

"CSAM" is an easy target because people can't see it - it would be wrong for you to audit the db because then you'd need the illicit content. So its invisible to the average law-abiders.

France has been pushing terrorism as a justification for mass-surveillance in the E.U.

Yes. I'm not interested in catching pedophiles, or drug dealers, or terrorists. It's the job of the police. I'm not the police.

Yes, if you act as the police you are a vigilante.

> the damage has been done. I'd say the authorities should prioritise tracking down the creators

Russian and ex-Soviet countries with human trafficking mafias host several fucked up people who produce this crap.

You know it can be used to get the geo location in the meta data of pictures for people who took photos at protests. Etc

I do agree with your points, but I think it's obvious to see that this feature is trying to allow authorities to catch the creators.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com