Comment by TeMPOraL | Hacker News Reader

Comment by TeMPOraL | Hacker News Reader

It's an obvious idea so there must be a reason it's not implemented - I'm curious what that reason is though, so here it goes:

Why don't they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?

Instead of adding complex computer shenanigans, why not design the product so that the most expensive part (e.g. a battery in portable tools, a motor or gearbox in mains-powered ones) is removable, shipped to store separately, and installed (or just given out) by the check-out clerk separately? Surely this must be simpler overall than adding digital complexity to where it doesn't belong[0].

The only reason I can think of is logistics - a wireless kill switch doesn't take extra space in the store, and doesn't create extra burden for inventory tracking. On the other hand, any wireless kill switch that doesn't involve turning the device into an always-connected surveillance system, with a built-in SIM card and crypto chip and all, will eventually be defeated by some trivial bit of DIY electronics (and the plans for that will spread among thieves quickly[1]).

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[0] - Not in this century, anyway. Maybe 100 years from now we'll be able to routinely make cheap computer add-ons that don't suck.

[1] - Like the plans for breaking into cars in era before advanced electronic countermeasures. Almost two decades ago, I once saw a bundle of such files on someone's computer, collected by the owner out of general curiosity - IIRC, it was a bunch of PDFs with diagrams showing, per make and model of a car, into what shape you need to bend a piece of metal, and where to slide it, to defeat the central lock.

I can see the totalitarian-minded mining this for a revenue opportunity to create an exciting new era of subscription-based power tools. You could have geofenced tools (your licensed job site) and tools that only work during specific hours or for a specific period of time. Higher torque settings or speeds could be unlockable features. Accessories would be DRM-locked (for "safety" and to "prevent theft").

This already happens in earth moving equipment.

The design of the tools will become increasingly complicated to tightly couple DRM functionality to prevent the trivial DIY electronics hacks that you describe. (My sci-fi brain is imaging motors with wacky windings that need specially PWM'ed streams of electricity to spin effectively, etc...)

I hate our industry so much.

Just wait until government and industry lobbyists get their hands on it. The powered PEX expander or wire terminal crimpler will need someone who's in the database as having the proper license in order to enable it after you buy it. You cross state lines and your tools won't work because you won't have the valid license. You try and use your tools near the property line and it won't let you because the DB has the wrong coordinates and thinks you're trying to work at the facility next door and you need to be in the union to do that. Of course the company will sell you the unlocked version of the $200 tool for $3k. If you bring too many power tools from different owners to a the same place and that place isn't in the DB as having a building permit the building inspector will show up with some thin veneer of parallel construction.

(Hopefully pressure from the low end tool manufacturers who try and compete on value keeps these kinds of things from happening.)

> Hopefully pressure from the low end tool manufacturers who try and compete on value keeps these kinds of things from happening.

Looking at the sad state of TVs (where the cheap brands just hop on the bandwagon and make a quick buck), I am not very hopeful. Everyone will be as consumer-hostile as they can get away with if they think they can make a few cents that way.

> Higher torque settings or speeds could be unlockable features.

Diabolical. “Scan this QR code to watch an ad and unlock 30 minutes of 3x speed!”

"please submit proof of your <trade> license on our website to unlock this feature"

Can't have scabs who aren't several years invested in the system doing work. (i'd /s it but the people who push these things will unironically say stuff like that).

Yeah. I was desperately trying to be charitable, but I suspect you're correct and this is the motivating reason.

> My sci-fi brain is imaging motors with wacky windings that need specially PWM'ed streams of electricity to spin effectively, etc...

After having recently read too many military sci-fi novels in short succession[0], I started to think how warring alien species would secure their military hardware against reverse engineering. I came to a similar conclusion - there would likely be a whole field of making every possible bit of a device coupled with every other bit, kind of like homomorphic encryption, but done with atoms and fields instead of bits. Like you said - windings that only work if you PWM the voltage precisely, perhaps according to some algorithm that compensates for those windings being scrambled, softly shorted, and otherwise smeared across half of the device's interior surface. Etc. Impossible to fix, but also impossible to figure out without original schematics.

And yes, the way the market is heading, I suspect we'll start doing this to ourselves to secure sales and protect IP.

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[0] - The Expeditionary Force book series.

> I can see the totalitarian-minded mining this for a revenue opportunity to create an exciting new era of subscription-based power tools.

Think bigger. Power tools that phone home describing their use and location, all tied to an individual via credit-card checkout (or face recognition) and/or warranty sign-up.

It's probably best to think of the modern world as being constructed with the substrate of a Las Vegas casino.

Could this also give unions control over what tools are approved for use on specific jobs or in specific regions? Or be used to detect when a union worker is doing a job they are not allowed to do? This is a thing. I had to "look the other way" when a person was sanding some wood, as if I cared. There was a specific union that was supposed to do the sanding and this was preventing the framer from completing their job.

The number of people who just take state regulatory enforcement action as something that's good by default is much larger than the number of people who give unions the same benefit of the doubt so we'll probably see geofencing tied to professional licenses at the state level before we see it on the facility/jobsite level and tied to unions.

Large equipment in industries that can afford it is already activated by employee badge for QC and employee tracking purposes so what you're describing already exists in some settings.

  > Why don't they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?

In really durable tools, motors are mounted deeply and securely in the case. They have to be. Removing/replacing a motor in a power tool is an involved time-consuming process that is prone to many errors. Of course, it would also require cooperation from the tool manufacturers concerning warranties and to to accommodate their product-design to a process like that (ain't gonna happen-- even the best tools are relatively low margin product, with much of the mark-up taken by sales channels).

And even if that's possible, it would be "easy" only for a highly-compensated, skilled mechanic with the right tools and 5-20 minutes of time. That's never going to be the case in neighborhood Home Depot's.

> Of course, it would also require cooperation from the tool manufacturers concerning warranties and to to accommodate their product-design to a process like that

I understand they're already involved - you can't just add an electronic kill switch after market, it has to be built into device, or else it would be too trivial to bypass.

They have to sell replacement batteries, so the power tool would still have a high value.

But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.

I think most stores with construction materials will allow the "pencil and paper" purchase flow, because it's needed for purchasing big/heavy stuff or buying in bulk. You give the note to the clerk, pay for the stuff, and arrange delivery.

>But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.

How is this not the solution, and more technology is? The local hardware store has cardboard slips you take to customer service for high-end/expensive tools, they then ring you up and you walk out with your newly purchased tool.

They've done that since the 90's. It's not that hard to figure out. Why does every problem need a *TECHNOLOGY* solution? I'm genuinely confused by all of this.

> Why does every problem need a *TECHNOLOGY* solution?

Cynical view: because a third party vendor bullshitted a company into thinking they need this overcomplicated contraption that they're selling, and the manager being bullshitted is too far away from the shop floor to realize it's a dumb idea (or they just don't care).

>> But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.

That's how we bought video games in the 80's from Toys R Us.

> Why don’t they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?

I don’t know, but two reasons I can imagine are:

- It may be much more expensive to have to install motors at checkout. That would mean needing all motorized tools to be designed with removable motors, which most are currently not. That would almost certainly mean a skilled staffing increase company-wide to find & fetch & install motors, a reduction in customer experience having to wait for it, running the risk of having the motor out of stock, etc. I’d speculate that a commodity chip inserted into the power circuit is a very cheap solution in comparison, and perhaps something Home Depot can do now without asking the manufacturers for anything.

- The cutoff circuitry can potentially be sold and marketed as a consumer feature. If the customer can also walk away with a tool they can disable, then the solution helps second-hand theft too. I’d bet that contractors would absolutely love the ability to disable and even track their tools using a smart-phone app.

What about weight? With some of that removed you get the wrong feeling for how it handles. Not exactly unimportant for power tools.

That's a good point, thanks! Solving it by adding weight-equivalent dummies would further complicate this idea.

Shades of "software dongles"

It won’t work for them to lock the tools by Bluetooth. Open the tool, remove the deadman switch, and the tool works. A power tool is a switch that connects the power source to the motor.

Most tools are battery operated these days. The batteries have a computer in them. You could have it refuse to deliver power if the tool isn’t properly activated. Similarly, the vario-resistor in the trigger could be replaced with a computer.

They’re not going to throw their existing batteries away, so the computer will be on the switch. The switch is a variable resistor and easy to bypass to remove the anti theft. This will have the same consumer push back as the last time Milwaukee tried to put anti theft in their tools.

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