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Comment by nindalf | Hacker News Reader

I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”.

This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a great way to start and maintain friendships - provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on but the news cycle will move on soon, while Saudi and UAE will remain staunch allies. MBS still loves them because Khashoggi remains dead.

Israel would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for the meddling kids at Amnesty International.

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> provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power.

That and also have backdoors into their clients' intelligence gathering. Knowing who is a good potential enemy of a state is always handy.

Some of the "incidentally collected" intelligence may be more valuable to Israeli intelligence than it is to Morocco, say, a Macron text with his opinion on the JCPA, or what he knows about a mysterious explosion at an Iranian nuclear facility. They have plausible deniability in that a client state performed the targeting, with a "private company" executing, and the are shocked to learn of this spying and "need to get to the bottom of it".

Having a hot mic on a world leader 24/7, and being able to blame someone else for it is invaluable.

Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.

Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.

It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.

> Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel

That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.

No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.

A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago.

There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely.

In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.

At least you're honest about wanting to dismantle Israel, could be nice if we got rid of the 1967 border/settlements bullshit. The "occupation" doesn't mean crap to the hard left, it's all occupation.

I just wish the US never got involved in this mess. It was a massive mistake that led to numerous downstream negative consequences for the US and its people.

The "hard left" sees Israel for what it always has been: A settler/colonial state. Israel will continue to push propaganda to bury this but the truth can never be erased.

> Its going to take decades though.

Who knows, maybe it never happens. If climate change brings about tens of millions of new refugees I don't think people will have that much time/energy to the so called Palestinian refugees anymore. They will have to get along like everyone else.

It will be interesting to see how climate change affects the area.

There is a possibility of a significant economic decline in the US caused by climate change such that the US will not be able to help Israel anymore just due to lack of resources.

Most of the countries in the region will be swallowed by the desert and that may include Israel. Even though Israel is at the forefront of mitigation technology, it does not seem like it is enough from what I have seen.

Yeah, fun speculation....we will see what happens.

Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?

It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.

Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.

Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.

> How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions?

It's not. It's equally despicable.

It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.

I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be.

Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.

I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests.

If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.

> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on

I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population.

Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it basically got its weapons for defense on the black market. So scrutinizing questionable defense contracts is a weak accusation, especially since all other countries do sell weapons to regimes as well.

What you are really criticizing is the success. Making that clear might not really helpful, but is factual.

> I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population.

And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.

That is a valid argument against unethical behavior but again, this isn't valid for the reality of arms sales. It would be better if that weren't the case, but it isn't. And the place to start is always your own government because here you are responsible and have the ability to enact change. Your government will try to move you to point fingers at other country. Exactly like you do here.

What the Russians do isn't an argument...

I can and do call out my own government. I can criticize other governments at the same time. I don't need to limit myself to caring about one issue.

> What you are really criticising

I wasn’t criticising them at all. I was merely pointing out where their interests and incentives lie.

Sorry, it wasn't meant as an objection. Didn't mean you with 'you'.

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