This means a simple trip like going upstate for the weekend would be hindered by needing to know where and when to charge the car.
If the entire trip could be done on a single charge, that is a lot of freedom.
Even when looking at non-exotica every-day vehicles like current-gen nissan leaf you get ~200 miles of range, and can recharge 240mph (more than 4 miles per minute) [1] More recent cars getting launched now (and again, not necessarily exotic brands, but even Hyundai and VW) have even faster charging rates.
So even a 15 minute break for the toilet and getting a takeout coffee will give you 60 miles of range. Stop for 45mins for lunch? Add 180 miles of charge, or 3 more hours of driving at 60 when you might want to stop again for a toilet break or to stretch your legs.
If you truly need to drive for 7 or 8 hours (400-500 miles at 60) without any kind of significant breaks on a regular basis, then I'd argue that you are probably taking quite a risk to your safety (and those around you - both inside and outside your car) due to tiredness.
> If you truly need to drive for 7 or 8 hours (400-500 miles at 60) without any kind of significant breaks on a regular basis, then I'd argue that you are probably taking quite a risk to your safety (and those around you - both inside and outside your car) due to tiredness.
I've done 350~ mile trips pretty often (about 5 1/2-6 hours) and I usually only stop for 10-15 min to go to the bathroom and fuel up. Driving for a few more hours isn't really that bad, and very common in countries with 10x the square mileage of yours.
At least here in Europe there are laws (for commercial drivers) about how long you are allowed to drive for, and when you must take breaks, e.g.:
> "you must not drive more than: 9 hours in a day - this can be extended to 10 hours twice a week"
> "a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes after no more than 4 hours 30 minutes driving"
Perhaps the US has zero laws in this regard, but these sort of rules exist due to lots of lessons learned by tired drivers killing people. Sure these are for commercial drivers, but I'd argue that if you are doing this sort of long-distance driving frequently (i.e. not just once or twice a year) then you are no different from a commercial driver and shouldn't assume these common sense laws don't apply.
Driving long distance when there's nothing around (eg the M6 between Preston and Glasgow) is so much simpler. You can definitely drive longer when you're not constantly negotiating city-adjacent traffic.
> Size of the country has no impact on this - people become tired and distracted during long drives.
But size of the country (and more importantly, density) has a massive impact on how far people drive and how frequently.
You can have multiple drivers sharing the same vehicle. This is a common occurrence in both commercial and non-commercial situations (e.g. a family trip with two adults alternating driving and rest periods). With 3-4 drivers on hand, either traveling with the vehicle or trading off along the way, a vehicle can be operated continually without any safety concerns, making the EV with its limited endurance and long recharge times the weakest link.
The Tesla Model 3 can easily add 100 miles in 10-15 mins if its battery is 30% or lower. That isn't theoretical performance, that's actual real-world performance that I've seen. That plus the ~250 miles of range the Model 3 LR has (again real-world range, without making any effort to conserve energy) means you can realistically to your ~350 mile trip with little to no change to total trip duration.
Now the Model 3 may be a premium vehicle, but EV development is only just getting started. Within the next few year we'll be seeing cars with similar performance for half the price. That tied with the rapid expansion of 150kw and 250kw chargers means that in the next 5 years, doing your theoretical road trip, with only one 10-15min break, will be possible in almost any new ~$30k electric car.
An EV charger requires minimal infrastructure compared to a gas pump, and zero attendances. That means that supermarkets etc can just convert normal parking spaces to chargers. Reducing the need for quick charging because people will shop while they charge.
On highways you can install huge 350kw chargers that can add hundreds of miles in the time it takes you to go to the loo and again chargers are incredibly cheap to install and require so little infrastructure compared to a gas pump.
The cost of a 4 pump gas station is about $500k[0], the cost of a 4 “pump” supercharger station is around $100k[1]. That’s 5x cheaper, and far easier to expand because you’re not dealing with flammable liquids.
[0] https://www.commtank.com/services/gas-station-construction-c... [1] https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger...
You also can only fast charge the Nissan leaf once per day max because of the battery cooling issues. That's also assuming you come across two working fast chargers in a day, which is far from guaranteed.
Non-supercharging infrastructure is pretty unreliable.
If I have to fast charge, it's over an hour to get to 80%.
I don't need anyone telling me I'm being unsafe and then restricting my freedoms because of that.
I'm looking forward to my upcoming beach vacation where I will drive 6.5 hours without many breaks, and it'll be as uninteresting to do so as spending those 6.5 hours doing anything else.
Re toasters, I just recalled that at a previous office, we had a toaster that was confiscated by building management, as we indeed lacked a proper license to use it in the building. But I guess that's ok, as this was mandated by the leasing contractual agreements, rather than being action that is overseen by elected officials.
Not if you use HVDC superchargers. I've taken several cross-country trips in a Tesla and it's not an issue. It takes 20 minutes to recharge and I do so about every 150 miles. Time enough to get out, stretch, pee, buy a snack, get back in your air-conditioned car (climate controls are fully functional while charging), check your email, and then it's time to go.
Tesla = 250kW
Bolt/Bolt EUV = 50kw Kona EV = 75kw (almost an hour to 80%) Leaf = 100kw
Which country?
Of course, there are lots of people who do need those things. There are lots of people in the world living in lots of environments that look different than yours.
> And they might also protest that trucks provide capabilities that other vehicles lack. But, as it turns out, a significant portion of truck owners never use their trucks for these capabilities. According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.
contradicts
>> the vast majority of pickups are used to tow or haul once per year or less.
According to your article, 65% of trucks are used for hauling multiple times every year.
I might consider an electric truck, except that even new gas trucks are way outside my budget. It'll be at least a decade or two before even used electric trucks are reasonably priced.
I rented an EV through a car sharing app the other week, and the first place I went to charge only had slow chargers. I stayed as I needed to grab lunch, but it added only maybe 10km of range. Later on the trip I stopped somewhere else I knew had fast and slow chargers but all the fast chargers were out of service. I only needed another 20km of range, so I just waited a hour while making a few phone calls, no big deal, but if I'd planned to fully recharge the car it would have been painful.
For commuting it's a different story as you can find out where all the chargers are on your route, and you'll learn which are most reliable and least busy. I have seen a few Teslas in my country with plates from the other side of Europe, so I guess it can work...
I'm a parent with weekend trips and the EV's fine, but if I were in a remote location with concerns about charging availability I'd definitely feel more range anxiety.
You are the only person asserting that. Nobody is saying that everyone should buy a long range EV. But there is a market of people who actually do need it, which is why they are being developed.
Here in the UK there are significant incentives for employers to put in car chargers, and councils in cities and towns are installing on street charging at a hell of a rate. In addition we now have big grocers providing free car charging in their car parks to provide a competitive advantage.
So in short, people may not be able to charge at home. But in the near future they'll be able to charge at every destination, so really won't need at-home charging any more (not to mention destination chargers are frequently used as loss-leaders and thus free to use). After all, what's the point of having a car if it's just gonna sit in your drive way 24/7.
It's not the frequency, it's the notion that one will have purchased a "bad" vehicle. Here, "bad" means that you need to rent another car[1] in order to go on a road trip. People buy cars for convenience, and renting a car to use instead of the car you own is not convenient. It's not odd to expect a new car to be as functional as one's current car over the course of a single year.
1 - The last time I rented a vehicle for a road trip (we had an extra guest, so wouldn't fit in my car), the total cost was ~$1,000. If we needed to rent a car twice in a year due to owning a range-limited EV, that would effectively add ~$167/mo to the cost of ownership of the EV.
Vans appear to be slightly more expensive but not outrageously so (and honestly it's not at all uncommon to get a free upgrade when you book the economy car).
As for insurance, why would our hypothetical family need to get insurance? Surely they already have it, if they have a car that they drive.
I'll grant you that insurance isn't necessary (or even advisable), however plenty of people feel more secure getting the (very expensive) protection given the risk of driving an unfamiliar car to likely unfamiliar locations.
Still, glad to see prices coming down. I paid $80/day for 3 days in June and $75 (after a discount) in July.
(It's outside my risk tolerance to reserve an economy car and gamble that I will arrive at the airport to be delighted by a complementary upgrade to a vehicle large enough to transport my party.)
Tech folks can make this argument, but it's a well-studied phenomenon that technologies have trouble gaining wide adoption until they are seen as credible replacements for existing usage patterns. Can either seek to convince millions of people to change their behavior (and show them why) or improve the product to better fit existing patterns. Which is easier depends on the characteristics of the product category.
My take is EVs are so similar to ICE vehicles that they will have to fairly closely approximate ICE capabilities to get to (say) 50% penetration. And that likely means they will need to support the fairly common (in America) use case of driving a half day (4-5 hours) in the hot summer, laden with weight, without adding too much drama for charging.
I once commuted on a motorcycle with the range of my daily commute (about 120 miles). Despite how ubiquitous gas stations are, and how fast I could swipe by VISA and pump 2 gallons, it was still incredibly annoying.
Those daily 4 minute pit stops were infuriating, I can't imaging having to spend half an hour at a EV charging station twice a week.
1600km (one way) a few times every year to visit parents. Flying actually takes longer (flights+ferries don't line up and the cost is far higher). Nearest costco is 465km. So a monthly 1000km shopping trip is normal. Not everyone lives in the bay area with every store imaginable within a few miles. Many people live in places like Alberta or Iowa, the places your food comes from.
[1] https://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/reference/GARM/Ch12GARM.pdf
EDIT - it seems the number of what we'd normally call urban is around 70% with about 10% in "Urbanized Clusters" which seem to be "Urban Places" that we think of as suburbs??
In any change there are always winners and losers. It does strike me that some people here are in for a lot of pain when the inevitable change comes along.
For people who commute regularly they can consume as much or more power from driving as their house does daily. For many people solar isn't an option for practical reasons (e.g. trees) and others have HOA restrictions. Also a used EV can often be had for far cheaper than any solar install.
In Georgia, the state offered rebates one year on EV leases that when combined with the Federal rebate made the 2 year lease of a Nissan Leaf cost nothing. When those 2 year leases expired many people opted not to purchase the vehicle resulting in a glut of Leafs on the market that had low miles for $5-15k. I bought one in 2017 and used it as a daily driver for a 50 mile commute for 3 years before we moved.
The last 3 homes I owned in Georgia would not have been suitable for solar. They all had 40-60ft tall pines on at least 3 sides in both my yard and neighbors that would have limited production significantly. The roof lines on two of those homes would have only permitted only about 4Kwh systems and even without the shade they'd never come close to the consumption of the home.
Also in Georgia the power companies are unregulated and so I had the choice of purchasing power from an EMC and the option of paying a few cents more per kilowatt to invest in the Co-Op's solar farms. And being a Co-Op, they also paid out annual dividends on both regular and solar power.
THAT is truly wasteful. Using a new product and then tossing it aside when it isn't shiny anymore. It creates a glut of used cars which depreciates all use cars... eventually resulting in many perfectly good vehicles being scrapped before their time = huge carbon emissions. The 'three Rs' start with Reduce and Reuse for a reason.
My case is atypical, but the case of people driving home to see their family is not. Driving 600km in a day would be difficult if it requires a mid-day charge and a parking space near a charger at night. Yet that's the distance I cover to visit my grandparents. In winter.
I regularly did a (570mi)918km trip (Atlanta to Jelico and back) in one day in my Tesla Model 3. It took 2-3 stops totally about an hour charge time.
It doesn't really suit my needs (I venture further out), but I concede that plenty of people would be just fine with this.
The reality is that it's acceptable for the majority of people. Many families could replace both vehicles with an EV, most families could replace one vehicle with an EV.
The sentiment that's perpetuated that "it wouldn't work for me" needs to die. Yes there are people and scenarios where it wouldn't work, and unfortunately those boundary conditions are being touted vocally and negatively shaping public sentiment.
If public sentiment were to shift strongly in favor of EV transition, it would still take decades and companies would actively start looking for solutions to the boundary conditions but as long as a vocal minority is online saying "this will never work for me" then there's always going to be push back slowing or stifling adoption.
Everyone who feels the urge to standup and say "no, this won't work for me" either needs to engage in find a solution that will or just sit down and shut up.
Yes, it's very much intentional. I've grown tied if being nice and trying to have thoughtful conversations with naysayers who have no interest in honest discussion.
When I go on a road trip it's for more than a week, renting would basically double the cost of my trip.
Another example I checked my local REI and the only thing still left to rent out for this weekend is hiking poles. And that’s considering REI charges like 20% of retail per rental
Over the last 18 months or so, between remote work and lockdown, journeys of 350+ miles with minimal stops (< 30 minutes total) probably make up about ¾ of the trips and 90%+ of the miles on my vehicle. A typical pre-COVID year would see about half a dozen trips like that (one way) mixed with commuting and trips around town—with the longer trips still making up a majority of the total miles driven. As I see it, at least in my situation, the ability to handle a 350+ mile trip smoothly and efficiently with at most one stop of 30 minutes or less is a basic requirement for any vehicle I would be willing to consider. Anything short of that would be a significant downgrade in practical terms from my current vehicle—an inexpensive, decade-old non-hybrid Honda Fit Sport which still manages 35 MPG on the highway.
Ecologically speaking, if I'm not using the EV for these longer trips then the environmental benefit of switching would be practically nil. Most of the miles driven would still be in a gas-burning vehicle. The same goes for a PHEV. We need to acknowledge that the shorter range and longer "refueling" times of EVs are significant practical issues standing in the way of EV adoption, and not ignore or downplay them. Fortunately we're finally starting to see some pure EVs with the necessary range, and also making some progress on building out suitable charging infrastructure. Now if we could just address the proliferation of brand-specific and member-only charging networks…
Of the 12k on my car, 9-10k of that was road trips around California. It’s easy to rack up miles if you’re into outdoor recreation. 500-600 mile range would be great, 400 mile range a minimum. 300 mile range is not practical at all. I’m assuming we’re talking advertised ranges, if it got 350 under taxing driving conditions and ac use or freezing weather that would be acceptable.
A majority of EV owners don't have L2 charging at home, and a short 30 mile weekend trip (60 both ways) is more than a L1 charger can replenish overnight. Way more if you use AC or drive when in cold weather.
I can easily drive more than I can daily charge with errands or driving the kids to class/camp.
The American decision to use intentionally limited, low-tier electricity grids as a cudgel to enforce zoning shows yet another facet of externalities.
On my old house, there wasn't enough capacity to add another 240v breaker.
You have longer times of recharge (20-240 minutes) vs a 35 seconds gasoline splash and go
Unless the US goes full Norway and decides to ban Gas cars in city centres , then you'd be getting an inferior product at a higher price point
That's the hard truth
I'd need at least a 60 mile range to be able to get to the farthest reaches of the nearest city and back. That seems to put me in Tesla territory, and the price doesn't make sense for the purpose.
I can't think of any modern EV that does less that ~150 real world miles on single charge. Except for those go-karts like the Renault Twizy, but that isn't a car.
Once per weekend, on average. So far, this makes EVs a non starter for me.
my gas car i just spend 10 mins filling up gas every few weeks