I also noticed that with win10 when apps crash it sends the data to Microsoft—as though they can fix 3rd party apps for us. Yeesh. I think I’ll skip out on Windows 11 TYVM.
Also MS does ship shims for popular 3rd party apps that don't fix themselves, for better or worse...
They should create some better apps to manage/configure that stuff. All I see as a user is when any app crashes it gets sent to Microsoft.
Of all the questionable telemetry this one is actually useful...
By that logic, what are firefighters doing but censoring homes? What are koalas but a form of eucalyptus censorship? What is locking your front door but a form of censoring burglars?
No, just no. Censorship is preventing the transmission of ideas, nothing more, nothing less.
Deleting a file has nothing to do with transmission, and it's being done in response to a perceived threat, not its communicative meaning. (Like how you lock your house to protect from burglars.)
It's important not to abuse the term "censorship" -- if it means everything then it ceases to mean anything at all.
If Windows Defender was deleting any file named "Animal Farm.txt", that would be a form of censorship, right? It's preventing the transmission of a piece of political literature.
Now, what if it was deleting "Animal Farm - The Video Game.exe"?
Now, what if it was deleting the keygen for "Animal Farm - The Video Game"? What if the activation server for that game had gone offline, and this keygen was now the only way to play it?
My point being, software (and especially games) can absolutely be a way of expressing ideas, and if you block the software, that seems like censorship to me. I also think that some forms of censorship are fine and even necessary—I don't particularly like stumbling across porn unprepared—but it should be optional.
If the intent is to prevent the transmission of ideas, then yes it's censorship.
If the intent is to protect from harm -- totally unconnected to ideas -- then no it's not censorship.
The reason Defender deletes keygens is that they're statistically associated with malware and viruses, as any Google search will terrifyingly immediately reveal. It clearly is falling under the "protect from harm" category as it's designed to do.
But so to answer your question clearly: deleting "Animal Farm.txt" because of the ideas inside is censorship (prevents it being transmitted). The video game would similarly be censorship if based on its content. But if it's deleting all keygens, regardless of content of their associated video games, then clearly not censorship.
But if it needs to be clearer: in censorship the harm is in the ideas themselves, the perspectives they spread.
In prohibitions that are non-censorship, it doesn't have anything to do with ideas. You aren't locking your door to prevent the idea of burglars entering your house.
Amazon literally deleted Animal Farm off of people's Kindle readers because of copyright[1]. We are so immersed in our ideology that we don't see that copyright is ideological and political.
Would it have really been better if it was because the text of it was considered problematic?
[1]: https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/07/17/amazon-deletes-kindle...
I guess, in some ways, you could consider it censorship. But without evidence that its being done specifically to target certain types of speech, as opposed to a side effect from some other goal, I'm not sure it's a particularly useful label.
What is anti-virus software in general but "censorship" of people's abilities to distribute viruses to whoever they want? What is an adblocker but software that "censors" someone's ability to advertise in the most effective way possible?
Also, where are you even getting that defintion anyway? Looking up nearly every form of the word 'censor' I can think of, nothing speaks specifically to the transmission of ideas. Rather, every definition I can find that makes sense focuses on deletion.
You could even argue that anti-virus is a form of voluntary censhorship.
"Censorship, the changing or the suppression or prohibition of speech or writing that is deemed subversive of the common good" (Britannica). Voluntarily enabling a program to filter incoming data for personal convenience and safety is the opposite of the censorship. Like following self-imposed rules and restrictions is not a lesser freedom.
For less tech savvy users wiping keygens might be a safer default approach. I am pretty sure that keygens are an attack vector.
Of course it's censorship, they're preventing it from being transmitted to you. That's what I said.
> Also, where are you even getting that defintion anyway?
Literally the first sentence of the Wikipedia article [1]:
"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information."
Speech and communication are transmission. There's no such thing as speech or communication with only a single party involved, as generally understood.
And no -- anti-virus is not voluntary censorship because it's not censorship at all. It's protection from harm, not a shield from comunicative ideas. If anti-virus were "voluntary censorship" then locking your home from burglars would be too. And that twists the word beyond any recognizable or useful meaning.
Mirriam-Webster defines a censor as "a person who supervises conduct and morals," adding a subdefinition as "an official who examines materials (such as publications or films) for objectionable matter." The relevant definition for "censorship" simply points at the word "censor," so it was not useful for my argument.
In any case, I think wiki is not 100% right according to the actual language authorities. MS deliberately categorizes otherwise-harmless piracy-related software as deletion-worthy, and that isn't censorship? When they clearly have a conflict of interest in that some of that software represents a direct threat to their revenue stream? C'mon dude.
And what exactly is harm? Microsoft is making subjective judgements, which can not help but be political. Microsoft has decided that historical and obsolete keygens and ansi art are harmful. It would not surprise me if they deemed software to circumvent obsolete abandonware encryption harmful as well, since it violates the DMCA.
A better analogy would be if you let a third party security company examine the items in your home and remove what they deemed to be "harmful" to you.
Not inherently, but a disparity in which fires get prevented and put out and with which priority might constitute censorship, just as a disparity in which types of programs are identified as malware might. Many historical examples for the former instantly come to mind, from one library in alexandria to a sexual research institute in nazi germany. Not to imply that this is comparable to those in magnitude of course.
(On second thought, that also applies to systems of explicit censorship, where all media has to be approved but media that exhalts the government line has a higher chance of being approved than media that does not comment. As well as our system of implicit censorship, where every film company has to make money, but a movie produced with approval and material support of the US military has a significantly higher chance of being financially viable.)
Also, fwiw "transmission" is literally the name of torrenting software. Would your argument change if that was the package being removed instead of qbittorrent?
Most people use windows, windows comes with defender on by default, what's stopping the govt/some company from getting msft to remove programs and files they don't like?
Literally the capitalistic profit motive?
You know, companies generally try to avoid pissing off their customers and driving them to competitors for no good reason. If Microsoft started politically censoring users' content, that's probably the easiest thing they could do to send users away from Windows and Office over to Macs and Google Docs en masse.
A lot of people here probably don't remember what email was like in the 90s/00s, before it got bad enough that Gmail's killer feature was (what we'd now call) cloud-enabled spam filtering.
The distinction between judgement and censorship is the amount of user control. (1) Does the user know it happened? (2) Can the user override the decision?
I didn't have time to poke through it, but options appear limited to whitelisting the app going forward, and then reinstalling yourself.
They can, and have done for decades. The classic famous one is retold by Joel Spolsky as "[...] a bug in SimCity where he read memory that he had just freed. Yep. It worked fine on Windows 3.x, because the memory never went anywhere. Here’s the amazing part: On beta versions of Windows 95, SimCity wasn’t working in testing. Microsoft tracked down the bug and added specific code to Windows 95 that looks for SimCity. If it finds SimCity running, it runs the memory allocator in a special mode that doesn’t free memory right away. That’s the kind of obsession with backward compatibility that made people willing to upgrade to Windows 95". One from Raymond Chen is a program which hacked its way through the control panel printers menu and Microsoft had to detect that, put a dummy menu for it to use, then trigger what it was trying to achieve. Since then application compatibility has become its own subsystem in Windows which developers, enterprises and Microsoft can use to create compatibility shims to make programs keep working even if their makers have gone out of business.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2281932
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20060109-27/?p=32...
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/i...
> "Interesting ideas here: how antivirus becomes a form of censorship. Maybe that’s an extreme view but it feels like now that Microsoft supplies it’s own defender app"
Why didn't it feel like that for all the other antivirus false positives from McAfee, Symantec, Norton, F-Secure, Panda, et al over the years?
And how is Microsoft (not a government) or Defender (optional) anything to do with martial law?
and, should the wealthiest corporations on earth be in charge of making sure that thunderbong does not get to make game cheats at home ?? of course NOT
on the other hand, as a software developer in the 90s, I went to Hong Kong, and saw first hand stalls of 100% pirated movies, games, OS and apps.. lots of it, with professional COPIED artwork and packaging .. as a content creator this was really disturbing.. people told me that there are no software development jobs (then) only hardware companies, for this exact reason
Summarize- commerce takes place in a market, and theft is a real, constant problem, both at the commercial level (Hong Kong) and personal level (Thunderbong). Yet, society must have some stable relief valves for overzealous, rich Sheriff types, and overreaching rich merchant types, to prevent rifling through the rights, privacy and headspace of Thunderbong, and the legitimate customer THEY might become, while dealing with commercial pirates who are just basically stealing.
I am a Westerner, and I have to say, I am more concerned that Thunderbong have a safe life, than I am about the profits of Merchant and turf of Sheriff.
I don't develop software for any Microsoft platforms, but on the platform I develop for it's actually common for the vendor to break something in their API, so that crashes in 3rd party apps are actually due to a regression in the platform frameworks. Analyzing third-party crash reports could guide them in catching those cases.
It would only be censorship if you didn't have a choice to avoid Defender, and you obviously do, or if Microsoft had some sort of political interest in suppressing files named keygen.exe.
That's just not true though. They have the ability to detect malware. What they are doing is blindly labeling anything reslembling a keygen as malware , for no valid reason. This also doesn't just apply to Defender.
First of all, that's not true. You can test it: create an empty file and name it keygen.exe. It won't get deleted.
The code inside the file has some similarly to one of the hundreds of thousands of malware used to train Defender, and there's a false positive.
None of that matters, though, because you can just not use it if it causes problems for you.
But on the bright side install any other AV (including free malwarebytes) and it will switch off.