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Comment by soco | Hacker News Reader

Hi, Switzerland here. I wish US americans would stop citing Switzerland as example for assault weapons allowed in Europe. It's one thing being allowed to keep the rifle at home, and an entire other thing being allowed to actually use it. The only reason Swiss are allowed the rifle at home is to be able to intervene quickly in case of war. And it comes with a lot of hooks so definitely no, police will not expect you being armed - not at home and even less on the streets.

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Yes, you are right, the military rifle is only for the case of war or the mandatory military training. It's also wrong to believe that there is a military grade gun in every Swiss household, most people leave their rifle at the military or in one central weapons depot run by the state. I'm not sure, but aren't you allowed to shoot it at a gun range? (as Sportschütze) A friend from Zürich was talking about this topic, but my memories about this conversation are a little blurry.

From what I've heard it's way easier to get a gun permit in Switzerland than here in Germany and the Swiss are allowed to have guns you can't even dream of here (I'm talking about stuff like the semi auto H&K MP5, AR-15/AK derivates, etc.).

I lived near Zurich in the early 90s (Canadian) and would often see people headed off to military service on the normal, commuter trains with an assault rifle as part of their kit. I assumed everyone just took them home with them when their regular service was done and took them back when they revisited it next year. Most of my colleagues that did military service would go for a couple of weeks a year and loved it (you serve with people from the area you grew up in, I think, and they looked forward to seeing their buddies again, drinking some beer, etc.).

War with whom? IIRC Switzerland are traditionally neutral. Serious question.

> … was especially furious when he saw that German equipment was used to shoot down German pilots. He said they would respond "in another manner".[17] On 20 June 1940 …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_W...

It could be some neighboring state gets ideas... last time it happened was not even that far back.

It's a lot easier for the "other guys" to justify not occupying a country that's equipped to put up a good insurrection.

Counterpoint: Afghanistan.

It's become a rite of passage for empires to try and fail there. Next up, China?

anybody who tries to invade. the swiss aren't neutral to invasions of the homeland.

zee germans

Downvotes? Really? I was asking seriously, I do not know the swiss culture and I wanted to know the answer. Silly me for wanting to learn something.

Yes, but as a Swiss civilian you're allowed to own a great number of semi-automatic rifles, handguns, and standard capacity (20, 30, or more rounds) magazines as a private citizen, provided that you go through a licensing processes which isn't very tedious or expensive. The whole "Swiss men all have their service weapon in the house" thing is conflation/misunderstanding/ignorance, but in many ways Swiss firearms law is not terribly different from US firearms law in terms of what you're allowed to own and in some cases it's even less restrictive (CH doesn't care about barrel length on shoulder-fired weapons, for example). They key different is the existence of a license system.

The main thing that sets the US apart from other countries is not that civilians can own AR15s or similar weapons, it's that US law for the most part gives any adult the legal right to purchase and own firearms by default, provided that they can pass a background check. The United States and Yemen are basically the only countries that use this system. Basically every other country has some sort of tiered licensing system for firearms ownership, with varying levels of strictness. And as it happens, Switzerland is pretty unrestrictive in this regard. The Swiss "Firearms acquisition permit" looks essentially equivalent to the United State's "Form 4473" which is required for the majority of firearms transactions.

https://www.ch.ch/en/acquiring-firearm/

To clarify, are Swiss citizens allowed to use the assault rifles they keep at home to defend themselves or their property against criminals?

Not a lawyer, but as far as I remember in Swiss law a criminals live is valued higher than your property. There would have to be an immediate threat for someones live for it to be even considered justified self defense. E.g. in a armed robbery you are expected to hand over the valuables they ask for before defending yourself with force.

Edit: assuming we are talking about shooting the criminal not just use the weapon as a deterrent. No idea what happens in that case, but I reckon either or both civil and military justice are going to have a word with you.

To clarify a bit. By law, a human life is the "good" of highest value above everything else. Just committing a crime does not exempt you from that principle. Wether self defense was justified is judged by whether the level of force used was an appropriate reaction to the threat at hand. So not sure whether using a military weapon (assuming not going full automatic) vs. private actually matters at all, or if that would just be a separate violation.

It's a separate violation because you'd be breaking then also the military laws and regulations (see other comments why)

The problem with this is that you are trusting that the robber is only going to rob. Unfortunately, all too many shoot their victims anyway because the take wasn't as much as they expected or other reasons.

Calm, reasonable robber--of course you hand it over. Crazy methhead, if he makes a mistake and gives you an opportunity you very well might be better off taking it. America doesn't try to judge the situation in advance.

I don't disagree when looking at it in isolation. But my comment was specifically to Switzerland which has according to the department of statistics around 30 cases of robbery per year which basically never lead to physical harm. It is just not something you worry about in your day to day live.

Drug addicts usually want to be left alone and won't bother you. Exception being people chuck full of cocaine and alcohol in and arounds nightclubs frustrated about not getting layed.

The problem is being tackled the other way around by trying to keep poverty, inequality and thus acts of desperation low.

From an ealier comment:

> They are not allowed to possess ammunition unless in special militias. Any ammunition bought or issued at ranges cannot be taken off premises.

So potentially yes, but only if you mean using the gun as a club.

The earlier comment is conflating general Swiss firearms ownership with the service-weapon take home system in use with Swiss military conscripts.

Swiss gun owners are allowed to buy, own, and use ammunition. They may also use a privately-owned firearm in self-defense situationally, but the legal justification for use of deadly force in Switzerland will obviously be more stringent than it would be in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzer...

No.

Thanks!

So there is a big difference to gun ownership in the US (and elsewhere).

It also varies dramatically between US states. If you shot a burglar in your house with an AR-15 in Florida the local DA might give you a medal. In New Jersey they would arrest you just for having the AR-15, and then likely charge you with murder.

(I'm not commenting on the morality of either state's laws; just pointing out that US states differ widely on gun laws.)

[Edit: I originally said California instead of New Jersey. NJ's laws are stricter but it appears that the vast majority of states allow much leeway when in your own home, so I might even be wrong about NJ.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

]

FWIW, even before the advent of the recent wave of "stand your ground" laws, there was an older legal principle, that was very widely held, called "castle doctrine"[1] which comes into play in terms of killing a home intruder. The details still vary from state to state, but AIUI, many locales hold to a form of castle doctrine such that if you kill an invader who is actually in your home, you would be unlikely to be charged with murder.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

That would prove very handy against vampires. Could they resist an invite to your home?

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