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Comment by erk__ | Hacker News Reader

We have something similar in Denmark which is a agency under the defence ministry. Though compared to THW they are only around 1/3 volunteers, 1/3 conscripts not wanting to be in the military and the rest is normal payroll staff. They also man the big pumps when it is needed and such here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Emergency_Management_Ag...

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When Germany still had mandatory military service, volunteering in the THW or firefighters for at least 10 years counted as having served.

The same was true for volunteer firefighters (although I vaguely remember that it was less than 10 years).

First time I'm hearing about this. Interesting! There was also the option for non-weapon volunteering services, which is what I did. If I knew about THW and that the time would count as well, then I might have done that instead.

I think you meant 10 months.

No, 10 years, but only for regular weekend exercises (5 times a year or so) plus being on call for emergencies. Whereas military service or other civil service (typically helping in some hospital or care facility) was a 8 to 24 month block of duty, just like any other care worker or soldier.

THW was seen as the really easy way out of the draft (if you could get a spot), because emergencies were rare and weekend exercises were "easy". Informally THW stood for "Trinken, Helfen, Weitertrinken", "Drinking, Helping, Continued Drinking".

What I feel makes it confusing is that it is not clear how you can have 10 years of volunteer firefighting at the age when you are eligible for mandatory military service.

I believe that the other commenters said that you could "commit" to being a volunteer for 10 years and thus could avoid mandatory military service. This is the part that was not clear.

How it worked was: you got mustered for the draft at 17 or 18, and depending on whether you finished school you got your draft notice between 18 and 20. At any point you could declare being a conscientious objector and apply for a spot at THW, firefighters or some care org. Spots at THW and firefighters were rare and sought after, and especially during the cold war you only got them through connections or with special reasons (important job you couldn't interrupt for en-bloc service). You also couldn't just apply to any village fire brigade because there was a mandatory number of exercises and trainings many of them couldn't provide. When you got accepted for a fire brigade or THW, you went to trainings and exercises. Every few months you had to report signed confirmations of those trainings and exercises. If you failed to report in time and sufficient number, because you didn't care, were unable, got thrown out, you could be drafted for military or civil en-bloc service after all.

I think it was 4 years in the end, but it was probably longer in earlier years (since the mandatory service was repeatedly shortened over the decades).

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/wehrpflg/__13a.html

Yeah it was reduced from 6 to 4 years in Dec 2010.

https://www.buzer.de/gesetz/5521/al25428-0.htm

Shortly after, in July 2011, the requirement for Wehrdienst was dropped altogether. Can't access older versions but there has been a history of reductions in lengths for the "normal" Wehrpflicht, so it probably followed suit: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrpflicht_in_Deutschland#Bun...

Pretty sure it was 7 years when I was drafted and it's the reason I didn't want to commit, but preferred to "waste" the 9 months in one bloc.

I’m fairly certain it was 10 when I was drafted, but draft was at least 11 month back then and civil service at least 13.

The biggest issue wasn’t the 10 years requirement but rather that when you somehow couldn’t fulfill it (moving or such), the time would reset and might be wasted.

Back when I was presented with that choice, I was entertaining it briefly. But I knew that I would move away to go to university. That, and the fact that 7 years seem like a very long time when you're 18 made me decide against it.

It wasn't that simple.

There was military service, which was the shortest.

The there was civil service which was longer.

Then there was disaster relive service which was even longer. But you only had to train every other weekend or so and help at disasters and not do it full time in one swing.

It was a higher years number. But when you are a dedicated firefighter (and most are), 10 years are just the beginning of your service. So the people who avoided military subscription by that made a good deal actually.

When I remember right, 3-4 out of my class avoided subscription like that (many on other ways).

As others have already answered, no. You may think of it, in military terms, as straight to reservist state.

Practically no-one is conscripted any more. There is usually 1-2 year wait list to go in and spend 9 months before Uni and the like.

I'm one of those volunteers in "DEMA". It varies by region how and how much the volunteers are used. I usually respond to the oddball police ect. support if my SWE job allows, but try to focus on our international capacities. USAR, ICT/camp/water-purification support for EU/UN management teams, satellite internet ect. My colleges ran a camp in Sierra Leone wrt. ebola, went to US Virgin Islands after the storm, I went to Sweden to fight forest fires and stuff like that.

I have friends and family ask why I spend the time, not just on calls, but education, gear maintenance and the like instead of focusing even more on my career and day job. The answer isn't rational, but it just gives me experiences I wouldn't get any other way. I grew up learning to inherently help people if asked to without question and probably wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't helping others. But at least when I need to justify it to my conscious self, I circle back to the egoistic view of how it benefits me as well.

Fun fact, the closer you get to Germany in the southern part of mainland Denmark, the closer the local fire departments start to look like the German "Freiwillige Feuerwehr". The culture there is just much more "everybody in the area that can, responds to the alarm".

> The primary firefighting work in Denmark are done by municipal fire departments and all municipalities are required by law to have a fire department. [...] The municipalities does not have to do the firefighting themselves, and a large part of the fire department services are done by the private firm Falck A/S.

> The company was founded in 1906 by Sophus Falck after he witnessed and volunteered at a fire at the Christiansborg Palace in Copenhagen, Denmark, in 1884. The lack of organization made a big impression on him, and motivated the creation of Falck later on in 1906. His mission was to help others in emergency situations. [...] Falck funds its acquisitions and capital expenditures out of its own operating cash flows. The majority of the company is owned by two Nordic-based nonprofit foundations: Lundbeck, a global pharmaceutical company, and the KIRKBI Group, a 75% holder of The Lego Group.

This is all deeply strange to Anglo-Saxon eyes!

So, a lot of fire services (and ambulance services), are outsourced to a private organisation, but that private organisation is itself sort of a public service organisation, and is owned by two charitable trusts. The Lundbeck Foundation inherited Hans Lundbeck's share of his pharmaceutical company, so very like the Wellcome Trust in the UK, and KIRKBI was founded by the current head of the Lego clan.

To what extent is this just for-profit privatisation, as we know in English-speaking countries, and to what extent is this some strange intermingling of private structures and public service?

Several of the well-known Danish brand companies have a significant part of them owned by a foundation. Novo (infamous for high insulin prices in US!) has 28% of it owned by a foundation, with assets of $65B. Similar with Mærsk, Lundbeck, Carlsberg, LEGO and even the window-maker Velux: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_over_danske_fonde_efter_...

> This is all deeply strange to Anglo-Saxon eyes! ... English-speaking countries

Is it though? Is it so different than public hospitals and schools owned by the Catholic church? I think there are even hospitals that are half public and half private.

I think most major areas have their own public firebrigrade, if I remember correctly Falck will manage the smaller firestations though they are still manned by large with volunteers.

It sounds like not-for-profit privatisation?

I think there used to be a lot more of this in the UK, but the postwar settlement involved nationalizing almost all of it, including all the volunteer organizations that popped up during the war. E.g. the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_Fire_Service

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