Hacker News Reader

Comment by drfuchs | Hacker News Reader

Where do I enter the intangible value of owning: "Don't have to worry about getting priced out if the neighborhood becomes popular; can do any improvements I want, when I want, how I want, and they become an asset; don't have to worry about not getting lease renewed at an inconvenient time (perhaps in the middle of a school year) when the owner's nephew gets divorced and needs a place; on the other hand, don't have to worry if I do want/need to move unexpectedly, but I'm in the middle of a lease."

Versus, of course, for renting: "don't have to worry that the roof will need replacement, etc."

Finally, you can do all the calculating you want, but retrospectively the biggest effect on financial outcome is liable to be whether you bought in what turns out to be the Detroit vs. Silicon Valley of say 40 years ago. Who knew back then? Who knows now? You pay your money and you take your chances.

View on HN

> Versus, of course, for renting: "don't have to worry that the roof will need replacement, etc."

This is kind of a tangent, but worrying about maintenance is exactly why I own a house. When I rented, poor maintenance issues were my problem whether or not they were my responsibility. I'd much rather be empowered to do preventive maintenance or fix things immediately, than be forced to wait until something fails plus a few days for someone to show up to fix it.

presumably for a renter, if the roof fell off, you leave and stop paying rent. The owner will have to fix it at their own expense, before putting it back up on the market.

The majority of issues that people face with their dwellings are nuisance issues. Leaky or clogged plumbing. Malfunctioning appliances. Faulty fixtures. These aren’t things anyone would pay a lease break fee for, nor would they be anything that would preclude the sale of a home.

If a roof had a leak in a rental, you could easily find yourself with a landlord who patches it, regardless of the fact it really needs replaced. What do they care if you have to make a renters insurance claim every 6 months? It ain’t their stuff!

This is the whole point of doing the calculation. If you determine that you're going to have $10,000 less in pocket per year, then you can make the call whether the freedom of owning a house is worth it for you for that price or not.

A hidden intangible that cannot be measured is that owners are much more likely to know and socialize with their neighbors. Even in a mostly homeowner neighborhoods, "the renters" often don't develop social ties the same way that owners do. There is something about knowing you are stuck there quasi-permanently with the same people.

A hidden major problem too can also be your neighbors, who can be incredibly annoying and won't go anywhere anytime soon. If you rent, oh well, go somewhere else.

Not so easy with a house, also excluding neighbors who do legal things that devalue your home.

> can do any improvements I want, when I want

This is the main thing I'm wondering about. Most people I know who own homes enjoy working on them. Home improvement becomes a hobby that they like, whether it's basic plumbing or painting the walls or building a deck. I despise this work (even though I do basic carpentry), and I fully consider it work that detracts from my life. It's like doing the dishes, it's a chore, and often stressful. Is owning a home worthwhile if I have no interest in these things? I do have great interest in privacy, not answering to a landlord, and not being priced out of an area.

> I despise this work (even though I do basic carpentry), and I fully consider it work that detracts from my life.

I felt that way when I bought my house too. My experiences:

Get used to the house never being fully OK. Things will continue to break, but over 90% of them aren't urgent. By the time I get one thing fixed (either by myself or by paying someone), something else is broken. That's OK. As time goes by, you realize that most of these things aren't really that important.

Yes, my toilet has a leak so I've turned it off for now: I have 2 others in the house. It's not urgent.

I cannot make ice in my fridge because the water hose to the fridge is leaking - had to shut off faucet. Am I going to chuck an otherwise good fridge over this? No. So for the past so many years, I manually add the water to the ice maker to make ice.

My over-the-stove microwave died. Twice. Am I going to rush and buy another brand new one? No. I'll wait till there is a sale. In the mean time, I can get a perfectly good used microwave for $20.

The list goes on and on.

If you want everything working all the time, then it will be a major pain.

Just learn how to find decent professionals/contractors, and learn to research prices before calling them.

I do a substantial majority of the repairs and maintenance on our cars and our house. It's a hobby of sorts, but it's also a real stretch to say that I enjoy it.

I do it because it's a phenomenal way to save money (and that savings is not taxed, meaning that if I avoid paying a contractor $5000, it's about the same financially as earning an extra $8500) and many of the jobs don't take an extraordinary amount of time or skill once I factor in the time required to get three contractors to actually show up and submit bids, choose the one I want to use, and do what project management is required to hold them to the standards we agreed to in the contract.

I don't know if you need to have interest in doing home repairs, but you need to have a willingness to do or to manage them.

Homeowners are at the bottom of the pecking order when it comes to contractors’ priorities. Property managers, landlords, and general contractors/builders can all give them more repeat business than homeowners can, so we get put at the bottom of the stack.

I enjoy part of it. I like creating something new... building a shed or trellis, adding a new light fixture. I don't like fixing leaks, patching walls, and so on.

But doing this stuff yourself is so much better financially. You don't turn a profit by paying contractors to improve your house; you profit by investing your own labor to do it at 20% of that cost.

Imagine investing in a stock where you could put in some labor now and then, and have that actually result in substantially higher stock prices.

I felt the exact same way, I bought because I had a few rental properties in a row that would take us in, then kick us after the minimum contract length. Nothing to do with us, just selling, renovating and driving up rent etc.

I got so sick of moving a family with an energetic one year old, I just recently purchased a place. Now my extended family has come to help on the house and I’ve found the work surprisingly pleasing(where I felt I have always hated this type of work).

After so many years moving pixels around on a screen, physical work with a group of people is just, nice.

But that’s just me, I’m sure you very well might still hate it but I was pleasantly surprised.

I think it is still worthwhile, especially if you have an interest in privacy. In an apartment, a landlord is generally allowed to have reasonable access to the premises, can choose whoever they want to do the repairs, etc. They generally control the property.

With a house, even if you have all maintenance outsourced, you choose who performs the labor and when they do. My last apartment was horrible with surprise inspections, and I've had similar issues with them scheduling contractors at inconvenient or unknown times. It's much nicer owning a home even if you don't like doing the maintenance yourself.

I was renting a great place last year, reasonable rent, fantastic location, etc. But my landlord lived next door and believed, with him being the 'owner', he could call round for a chat anytime he felt like it, this would go as far as him coming up to the kitchen window as I was making dinner and hanging around at the usual time I would return from work.

Within a couple of weeks I was staying at work later, leaving in the morning earlier and generally avoiding the place at every opportunity.

I left a few months ago at significant expense and don't regret doing so one tiny bit.

There is much more to the equation than money.

> can do any improvements I want, when I want, how I want, and they become an asset

Depends on the HOA rules, if you have an HOA.

As for whether they'll be an asset, it depends on the improvement ;-) I tour open houses often, and people definitely have done some typically undesirable improvements.

> Don't have to worry about getting priced out if the neighborhood becomes popular

That's what property taxes are for.

And if they cant raise taxes they'll just legislate your standard of living via bylaw then sick enforcement on you to the same effect.

"Rich but not Koch and Murdoch rich" people are f-ing terrible to live with. They give a shit about everything.

That depends on what state you live in. CA property taxes can't go up by more than 2% (or thereabouts - the specifics don't matter) per year, and aren't pegged to the actual current value of your home.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com