Hacker News Reader

Comment by JumpCrisscross | Hacker News Reader

99.5% of those dying from Covid in America are unvaccinated. 99.5%.

At a certain point, I don’t know what to say, but the train has to leave the station. If you choose to run around unvaccinated and get Covid, the rest of us shouldn’t have to (a) shut down our lives or (b) pay tax dollars to save you if you end up in the hospital or dealing with the costs of long Covid. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Motorist_Law.) This keeps everyone happy, and somewhat equitably constrains the harm. (It leaves those who can’t get vaccinated SOL.)

View on HN

The problem is that you can't differentiate between "stupid" and "justifiably ignorant" or just "scarred by history".

Black people were literally experimented on under the guise of vaccination programs. They have no reason to believe that isn't going to happen again.

And then you just have millions of people who don't know basic biology or medicine, and vaccines are no more fathomable than magic.

Add lots of misinfo from Facebook to that mess, and you have people who can't always be blamed for their fear.

All I know is that if I was black, I’d have be damn distrustful considering the history of experimentation—especially when news came out last year that some folks at the CDC were advocating prioritizing the delivery of the “non-fda approved, experimental and rapidly developed” vaccine on people of color because “anti-racism.”

Not saying that the sentiment wasn’t genuine, but damn that is some poor optics considering the history.

> millions of people who don't know basic biology or medicine, and vaccines are no more fathomable than magic.

But you could say the same about most things that most people do every day.

Nobody needs to become an amateur biologist.

But everyone needs to have the self awareness to step back and realize that vaccines are one of a hundred things they do that they don't have the expertise to build or explain, and that the only reason they're hesitant about this one is because they've been drawn into a culture war about it.

Whereas the rest of life that's equally unfathomable, we do it without controversy because nobody's found the value in making us pawns over it.

They have no reason to believe that isn't going to happen again

I sympathize with that statement, and maybe this is just semantics, but did we ask Black people to receive the vaccine first?

Everybody has equal access.

> Black people were literally experimented on under the guise of vaccination programs. They have no reason to believe that isn't going to happen again.

This is the only sympathetic group out of the bunch. (Lots of people are ignorant of a lot of things for lots of reasons, sometimes at great cost. Those costs are generally theirs to carry.)

Practically, however, that sympathy has limits. Should we shut down New York again because those who refuse to get vaccinated will die? Would there be the political will to?

Although I think covid vaccine hesitancy is dumb at this point (yet don't think you can punish hesitant people) - Why should only those groups be hesitant? Anyone who can read history can see that happened even if it didn't affect their relatives. The government isn't known for being very effective or trustworthy lately, why should people think their incompetence/malice should be limited to those groups? Plenty of people of all races were attacked by the police last year during peaceful protests. Biden went on to lump protestors with anarchists as well as called doubt on Trump-led vaccines.

> Why should only those groups be hesitant?

They shouldn’t. But there is daylight between the government having done something unfavourable to a group you identify with and it having abused the specific thing you’re being asked to do (saying you’re being vaccinated while administering a disease).

I agree the precedent exists for all Americans. That’s scary. But “the government has done bad things” isn’t a valid excuse for ignoring the other evidence. (I don’t give Black Americans a free pass on non-vaccination. I just sympathise with the hesitance.)

>Black people were literally experimented on under the guise of vaccination programs.

There's been a lot of stories and allegations about vaccination programs in Pakistan in the 21st century, in relation to attempts to find Osama Bin Laden. That they were fake, and/or covertly collecting DNA for the CIA.

Is this a valid reason for all Americans to be suspicious of vaccines or at least not to blame them?

> the rest of us shouldn’t have to (a) shut down our lives or (b) pay tax dollars to save you if you end up in the hospital or deal with the costs of long Covid

still remains true and you didn’t present a counterpoint to that

Would you say the same thing about abortions? Just because a child was taught that contraception is evil, we shouldn't have to pay for her abortion?

This example doesn't disrupt anybody else’s life, limiting the similarity only to b) which I don't have an opinion about in isolation

both a) and b) have to be satisfied for me to care enough to dissect the similarities and offer an opinion

I’ve come to understand your example is a topic a lot of people care passionately about though. That’s interesting.

>They have no reason to believe that isn't going to happen again.

Come on.

In this case, too, anti-vaxxerism is due to a lack of education.

Whatever we do, we need to improve education, or we're going to continue paying for the consequences of not having enough of it.

If you read the essay they made a good example of why black people are hesitant- their history of mistreatment by a racist medical industry. So to say we should leave these people “SOL” strikes me as deeply non-sympathetic to efforts at reparative racial health justice. Another thought I had is that figuring out ways to influence (trick?) these people into making the “right” choice now wrt vaxxing may not make them less hesitant about “following advice” in the future.

Same applies to obesity in your opinion? The risks are very well known but people don’t do enough to prevent it and take care of themselves. Should obese people not relieve medical care due to their negligence and unwillingness to eat less?

While obesity is a problem and the solutions heavily involve the person changing their life, it is not comparable to vaccines.

Fixing obesity involves education (not everyone knows why McDonalds is junk, or that too much of anything can be bad, meaning portion control), skills training/learning (cooking healthy food can be a big leap for someone who only microwaves a frozen meal), local environment (there are places with poor selection of fresh vegetables), lifestyle stuff beyond food (stress from working two jobs leads to eating badly, drinking, etc), and socioeconomic changes (not everyone can afford all of the above easily). That doesn't even involve things like getting you kids on board, fitness, etc.

And with all of that in place, significant weight loss is a long term effort spamming years for some people.

Getting a vaccine involves rolling up a sleeve then sitting for a bit in case of reactions. And maybe making an appointment.

Equating the two grossly overstates how hard it can be to deal with obesity vs getting a shot.

> Same applies to obesity in your opinion?

Of course not. We don’t understand how to prevent obesity. And losing weight—or keeping it off—involves more than visiting a Walgreens.

Also, if you’re obese, you’re suffering the effects of obesity all the time. If you’re unvaccinated, you are fine 99% of the time. If you stay home as much as possible, wear a mask outdoors and avoid large gatherings, you’re likely to continue being fine.

"We don't understand how to prevent obesity."

Please reference below:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25196414/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3606061/

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesi...

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

https://effectivehealthcare.ahrq.gov/products/obesity-resear...

Read your first link. Literally, from the abstract:

“The evidence base is limited in quantity and quality and insufficient to provide clear guidance“ [1].

The entire paper is about the “major evidence gaps.”

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25196414/

Which is why I included it first and did not bury it and did not ignore it on my search. But I will give you brownie and taco points for actually reading the references

I have read many scientific, peer-reviewed papers on this subject. There is too much 'insufficient' data and too much correlation/causation issues. I am a hardware engineer, so am driven, delimited, and succeed or fail on the veracity of my data. I can generally depend on good data provided by suppliers and its efficacy because it is based on Physics. I have read may MS and PhD papers in botany and cellular biology, and a few CDC/NIH/FDA papers on the OT. I will conjecture that there are too many life scientists on these research teams and not enough physical scientists and engineers.

Losing weight == eating less. Not rocket science

Humans evolved to allow hunger to override the rational thinking part of the brain. The older parts of the brain can basically shut off the newer (logical thinking) parts. So even if you know you have to eat less to lose weight, often if food is available you won't be able to resist it if you are really hungry. Your statement is wrong, it is more complicated than that because we are hardwired to not starve if food is available.

And yet no country in the world, rich or poor, Western or non-Western, managed to reduce its obesity levels to, say, three quarters of the maximal value or less.

So it seems to be, in practice, a more complicated problem than reduction of smoking, which has been rather successful in many countries.

Obese people cannot infect others.

To a degree, yes. Not literally, because obesity isn't caused by a bug. But kids born and raised by fat parents have a high probability of ending up fat too. In this case, obesity is transmitted to other people through internalization of bad eating habits.

I have one friend with an allergy. Their doctor said to not get the vaccine. They’re high risk. I hope this is a rare combo but some people have something to worry about as they get sent back to work

A big problem is parents with young children (who cannot get vaccinated). Even if the risk to kids is relatively low, it is still non-zero and increased by the ignorant behavior of a few adults.

It is terrifying that this is a serious opinion upvoted by many people.

In UK more than 50% of deaths are vaccinated

Do you have a source on this?

63% according to this link [1], along with an explanation as to why this is not an alarming number (TL;DNR if everyone were vaccinated, then 100% of deaths would be vaccinated).

https://www.deccanherald.com/international/world-news-politi...

Imagine 95% of adults are vaccinated, and 95% of covid deaths are vaccinated

I don't think that the article does enough to dismiss it. And since every older and at risk person was vaccinated you have no one to compare to

Reply on news.ycombinator.com