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As a Dutch citizen I am bit worried about what they will do to obtain an alternative income stream. I am not really harmed by the drug trade.

I would be harmed by robberies on the street or in the home.

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You are harmed by the drug trade. You live in a society where a totally unregulated industry allows bad people to get very rich and exercise illegitimate power through violence and corruption.

You live in a society where young people become addicts and rob and harm the people they love and then die prematurely.

From your description, it does not really affect me.

Mocro maffia has already infiltrated the justice and police departement. It’s detrimental to the rule of law and very hard to get rid of once corruption takes root in those departments. A weakened rule of law will affect everyone.

Police I will readily believe, justice department would require some pretty hard evidence though, did I miss something important?

> De Antwerpse criminelen hebben zoveel geld dat ze alles en iedereen kunnen kopen. De voorbije jaren zijn een corrupte douanier en verschillende havenarbeiders veroordeeld voor hand- en spandiensten aan drugsbendes. Een groepje top-IT'ers hackte grote rederijen in opdracht van de drugsmaffia. Ook het gerecht en de politie zijn geïnfiltreerd. 'Het is stilaan abnormaal als we in grote drugsdossiers geen lekken vanuit de politie of het parket naar criminelen ontdekken', is de schokkende commentaar in Antwerpse gerechtelijke kringen.

Quote from three years ago, after Mocro Maffia set up shop in Belgium. Belgium is a couple years behind The Netherlands. So there's no doubt about it, things are even worse in The Netherlands. Belgium is now in the throw-grenades-at-homes phase but no public executions yet. Matter of time...

Google 'ondermijning'. Crime has a lot of influence on the 'bovenwereld'. If you can't see how this affects you, then that's pretty short sighted.

> You live in a society where young people become addicts and rob and harm the people they love and then die prematurely.

Let's not make grand sweeping statements about societies which you clearly don't have a huge practical experience with (or if you do, of which you are grandly exaggerating certain problem spots in order to make your point seem more emotionally critical).

I actually do have practical experience with that society and it's actually not all that exaggerated, if it is exaggerated at all.

NL has a drug problem, and has had a drug problem since the 70's or so. It's been worse than it is today, but even today school age children are approached on a regular basis by pushers, plenty of them end up as addicts and quite a few of them do end up on the wrong side of the law to the point that we have special programs to deal with this.

None of our communities is immune from this, whether you live in Northern Groningen, Zeeland, Limburg, Gelderland or the Randstad, the problems are legion and so is the secondary fall out.

I am not aware of pushers and a drug problem among school age childeren in Groningen, do you happen to have sources? I can't remember a single article from the local paper.

The biggest issue discussed in Groningen is lachgas ( nitrous oxide ). And alcohol.

The drug problems from the 70's and 80's were mostly heroine, not seen as a problem anymore as most of the users have died out.

You seem to be blisfully unaware of the world around you and have a set of opinions that is based on that limited experience. That's fine with me. Having lived in Drenthe (Exloo), Groningen, Amsterdam, Kortenhoef, Baarn, IJmuiden and probably a couple I forgot my personal take on this is that if your life has not been touched by the drug trade in NL that you should consider yourself charmed.

Lachgas is a problem, but a very minor one in comparison to harder drugs, alcohol has been a problem for a lot longer than either harder drugs or soft drugs. Unfortunately Groningen is not an exception to any of this.

As for sources, here is one:

https://www.harendekrant.nl/nieuws/drugsdealer-learen-lees-m...

and I'm sure you'll find a reason to disqualify it but there is far more than this single article.

I am living in Groningen center now for 10 years ( grew up in Haren ), your source is from 2015 and as far as I know, is not an incident as part of a broader problem of drug pushers to school going children.

What should I google to find the 'far more' ?

If I google 'drugs school groningen', I come up empty.

If I google 'dealer school groningen', I come up with one article from 2017, minor incident, and best of all : that was my school.

So were can I find far more?

I said I'm sure you will find fault with it. Predictable.

Those 'minor incidents' are two a penny. Even at the better schools kids regularly use drugs. If you don't know about it or don't want to know about it then maybe stop extrapolating from your limited experience to the rest of NL. And good luck when/if you have kids in school, watch out from round about the age of 11.

> stop extrapolating from your limited experience

That is just a baseless assumption on your part : I lived for extended periods in other cities.

I know some parents with children here, the subject has never come up. I don't recognize your characterization of the problem at all.

Maybe you should stop projecting your views on a city you apparently know little about?

FWIW I have lived in Oudezijl, near Nieuweschans, have a son who lived in Groningen, Middelstum, Ter Apelkanaal and Beerta. What you personally have not experienced has no bearing on my own experiences, even if the localities overlap. Consider that the world is larger than your personal slice of it and that those things that do not happen in your slice in fact do happen.

The drug trade in Groningen is alive and well, you can take that to the bank. And if you still don't believe it then maybe have a chat with some LE and see where that takes you.

You are moving goalposts : drug trade is something else than pushing drugs to children. Of course there is drugs trade, I have never disputed that.

Drugs are pushed to children, and there is drug trade. They both happen. And if you think that the first is happening out in the open then you're mistaken, it's pretty subtle, typically schoolmates who have been made part of the trade and who are asked to scout out likely takers.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2326997-pillen-laten-rondgaan-in-een-...

> I said I'm sure you will find fault with it. Predictable.

If the allegations are not supported by evidence then it's natural that anyone finds faults.

That, and your ad hominem, says everything about your accusations.

> Those 'minor incidents' are two a penny. Even at the better schools kids regularly use drugs.

If that is supposed to be any close to the truth then how do you explain the complete lack of evidence or even anecdotal accounts?

I mean, can you actually support any of your claims about the alleged torrent of cases that is everywhere but also nowhere to be seen?

Yes, I can, see links in this thread.

And plenty of them elsewhere, but all in dutch.

Google terms "site:.nl drugsgebruik middelbare scholen nederland" "site:.nl drugsgebruik lagere scholen nederland".

Enjoy. And if a school in NL claims that they don't have a drug issue: find out if they really don't or if they are simply closing their eyes because it's too uncomfortable to discuss.

There is no evidence that schools in nl do not have a drug problem, but there is plenty of evidence that they do.

For instance, an article about Arnhem:

https://nos.nl/artikel/2322862-steeds-meer-blowende-jongeren...

Loosely translated into English : Trimbos ( a Dutch drug use non-profit ) says : "we don't see a significant rise in drug use among the youth. 9% of youth between 12 and 16 has used cannabis at a particular time".

BTW, the whole article is about cannabis. Is this what you are worked up about?

The numbers sound about the same for my cohort, and our teachers were well aware, also who we were and it was discussed openly in class. And we felt safe enough to be open about it as well.

You seem particular puritan. One needs to remember the Dutch voted for gedoogbeleid ( laissez faire policy ) and it has been in place since the 80s.

> Yes, I can, see links in this thread.

No, I really can't. So far you've been unable and unwilling to do so. I see a lot of posts from you with unsubstantiated allegations followed up by desperate ad hominems.

And when you are pressed about it, you hand-waive, deflect, and redirect.

I repeat: if there were a tenth of the cases you alleged then you would have zero problems presenting a single convincing example.

But you even failed at presenting any relevant case at all.

Please read the link you just provided. It states the exact opposite of what you're claiming. That was the best example you could come up with after so many ad hominem and after being repeatedly pressed to support your unsubstantiated allegations. Your dozen of scaremongering posts in this discussion boil down to that, the absolute best example you manage to put together. And it contradicts your claims.

You should really reflect on what you're doing, because if you have a problem with reality not backing up your firmly held beliefs to the point you get so emotional about that delta then some contemplation is in order.

All societies have a drug problem. The only question is, which policy minimizes that problem while considering all related problems (pareto efficiency). There's no "one size fits all" solution.

Yes but you're talking about a country with ~ 0.6/100k murders per year

The US average seems to be 5, worse cities can get to 20? 40?

The problem exists but let's not take it out of proportion

That's fair, but we were discussing drugs, not murder per se, even though that is the core subject of the article in the end it is the direct result of the drug trade.

I have practical experience with that society as well. And have children at school. I used to go to house-parties a lot in '90 and '00 and have first hand experience in the 'drug-scene'.

What you are describing has happened in the 70's and 80's. Education, special programs and (semi-)legalising weed (soft drugs) had though most kids how to avoid addiction. Since then alcohol abuse is a far bigger problem amongst kids [source: https://www.trimbos.nl/kennis/cijfers/alcohol-drugs-roken-sc...]

Sure, drugs is being sold to kids. For recreational (weekend) use and not full-filling some addiction. So does that make it a drug-problem? From my point of view most kids know exactly what they are doing. Plus I haven't met a single dealer in NL which needed to resort to 'pushing drugs to kids' to sell his stash. So maybe your sons were asked to buy drugs, which is a very different situation.

Thé most troublesome problem, involving drugs in NL is people slipping GHB into other people's drinks, to abuse them afterwards.

Colleague in Baarn: serious drug issues, one of the best schools in the region, unfortunately not an isolated case. Friends of my son, just out of school, similar situation different location(s).

Other friends and their kids: multiple passes, dealers are either their school buddies trying to make some money on the side so they can buy fancy clothing or phones, or outsiders who are in it in a more professional capacity.

NL has a drug problem, like it or not it doesn't really matter, it's there and if we pretend it isn't there it is certainly not going to be resolved.

>exercise illegitimate power through violence and corruption.

sounds like the description of a government

Perhaps, on occasion, but the alternative seems to be warlords which tend to be less predictable and more brutal.

It's exactly that. It's the primary reason why we need to have strong governments because the only alternative is strong criminals.

Society is harmed by people who murder journalists.

Doesn't compare to being robbed and or mugged. I live in a city center, this already happens on occasion very near to my home. I don't need more of it.

First, they came for the journalists...

-Guess what: many muggings are committed by drug addicts in need of funds to finance their habit; regulate the drug business and much of that crime segment will go away.

Being murdered doesn't compare to being robbed?

> Being murdered doesn't compare to being robbed?

I believe OP's point is that an exceptionally rare assassination of a random person does not compare to frequent robberies of people close to you.

It's not a random person. It's a person who did something mafia didn't want him to do and was killed because of that. So basically mafia can dictate what you are allowed to do and kill you if you don't obey. Doesn't sound like a safe environment, does it?

I am not really harmed by the drug trade. I would be harmed by robberies on the street or in the home.

The latter comes packaged with the former.

That is more of an issue where you have high drug usage. Drug traffickers generally aren't in the robbery and petty crime business. Most of the drugs in the Netherlands are passing through to elsewhere in Europe.

Define petty. Drugs and theft are pretty much connected. It's widely "accepted" in Dutch society that your bicycle might be stolen anytime by a junkie. My car's windows were smashed several times over years, and I tend to think that thieves are more likely to spend their profits on drugs and alcohol than on books, bread or rock concerts.

Meanwhile Dutch police doesn't investigate any of this "petty" crime. Instead they boast that the occupation of prisons is in all time low, and that they are rented prison space to other countries. Wonder, if anything will change, considering the prevailing "pragmatic" - "it doesn't affect me if my wallet isn't affected" attitude in the Dutch society.

While I agree that bike theft by junkies has been a widespread fenomenem in Dutch society, it has largely died out here in Groningen ( presumably because the junkies died out ).

Interesting take.

No, the junkies did not die out. What happened is that we enacted a bunch of legislation that made it possible to help people get treatment and replacement drugs instead of having to steal bikes or car radios.

The added benefit is that if you are using a playground you no longer have to be overly concerned about stepping into needles.

Oh, those policies were put in place, and are still in place at a much smaller scale.

The junkies problem of the 70s and 80s died out, that generation is largely dead and with the changing culture and the closure of most kraakpanden ( squatting places ) no new junkies were added. The junkies died out.

You may not be affected by the drug trade directly but potentially by what that drug trade finances (e.g. acquisition of weapons).

They are wise enough to only use these weapons in their own conflicts, which do not include me.

Because drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people are not a thing?

> Because drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people are not a thing?

They really aren’t a thing.

Certainly not in the Netherlands. Even in the US, it’s an exceptionally rare cause of death of no significance at all.

> They really aren’t a thing.

They really are in the UK.

> cause of death of no significance at all

Of course, someone's needless death is of no significance. You have probably never heard of John Donne, but:

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

I've been out of the country for a few years but ... are you telling me that drive-by shootings have become a serious problem in the UK? Last I checked shootings of any kind were extremely rare. I would imagine drive-by shootings would therefore be so vanishingly rare that you could only really say they were "a thing" insofar as they have taken place there at some point, not as any sort of significant consideration when discussing drugs policy.

They are not rare now - and they have always happened. There is a huge amount of gang-warfare in the UK using guns and knives (just look at London, Birmingham and Manchester) and it spills over to bystanders.

And maybe look up "county lines", which is corrupting children, and spreading the drug trade, and violence, to even small towns.

I am not against the use of drugs, and have used some at one point or another myself. But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence.

Between March 2018 and March 2019, there were 32 gun homicides in the whole of the UK (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...). This is not consistent with the claim that drive-by shootings are a commonplace event. For comparison, there were, for example, 326 gun homicides in NYC alone in 2019 (https://efsgv.org/state/new-york/#:~:text=More%20than%20800%...)

But of course, 32 lives are insignificant. And you haven't talked about knife murders, or other violence, such as arson. But, what the hell, you have made your point - it doesn't matter about people getting killed, so long as the numbers are what you, in your wisdom, consider "low".

Also, this is 2021.

I was just addressing the claim that drive by shootings are something that happen with a significant frequency in the UK. They really aren't, as is obvious from the gun homicide stats.

The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world, so there is no reason to put 'low' in scare quotes in this context.

I'm not sure how representative pandemic stats would be, so it made sense to look at 2019. But I don't think you can seriously claim that drive by shootings have massively increased during the pandemic. Or at least, if you do claim this, it would be good to see a source.

It's 32 more than I would like for sure. But I don't think it's fair to talk about it like this is an everyday thing in the UK, particularly drive-by shootings which was the original point of contention.

I do agree with you on this part of your original reply, though:

> But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence.

It's definitely the case that criminalization of drug use is one of the root causes of a lot of violent crime in the UK. I imagine we'd have other social issues to contend with if we followed the path of making many drugs legal, but we'd certainly have less crime related to their trafficking and distribution.

> They are not rare now

Bollocks.

> 32 lives are insignificant

Nobody is saying this, anywhere.

More importantly, how many of those were innocent bystanders?

The point is not that people’s lives don’t matter, the point is that being caught in a drive by shooting is an absurd thing to be afraid of. You are more likely to get hit by lightening, or slip and hit your head in the shower.

I live in the Netherlands and in a good neighbourhood. One neighbouring house was blasted with heavy gun fire by a passing-by vehicle in an attempt to murder someone. So it’s not unheard of.

Also, in my previous apartment (Amsterdam), I’ve heard a gang execution (shots were fired) in the middle of the night.

I also know people who knows the DJ who was executed inside his car in the presence pf his family.

There’s a problem in the Netherlands.

Yeah, well said. I worked for a couple of years in the NL and didn't really feel as safe as I did in North London (which is saying something).

None of these are examples of ‘drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people’.

I’m not saying that drug related violence is not a thing. It accounts for most of the gun related murders in the US, for example. Probably the same is the Netherlands.

However, innocent bystanders being at risk is not a thing.

There have been at least two innocent people murdered because they got the wrong person.

This attitude is so infuriating. "Their own conflicts" ->

https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/aantal-vergismoorden-sti...

and that's before we get into those cases where people were slaughtered in front of their spouses and children (and who sometimes were slaughtered right along with them).

Massive shoot outs with automatic weapons on the highways, in the cities and on one occasion on a small beach near Amsterdam.

If it doesn't include you then you are lucky. But it could be you, tomorrow.

Most of the population voted for this. Our public broadcaster is running a very succesful series ( Mocro Maffia, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8810204/ ) on it.

And most of those progressive voters live in the areas which are affected ( Amsterdam, Randstad in general ).

And if they did not vote 'progressive', they voted VVD ( neoliberal, keep slashing funding until it is bare functional : our police ).

> Most of the population voted for this.

Ok, I think you've just disqualified yourself from further discussion. I'm not going to cross the HN guidelines to tell you off.

I would appreciate if you formulated precise : you are disqualifying me.

What is the point of your comment? Why comment at all?

The point is that if you believe that false equivalences are going to win you this argument then I'm done arguing with you. People vote in elections based on all kinds of issues, they do not vote for summary executions of journalists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Giving off some heavy sealion vibes here

As someone from Scheveningen, your attitude is disheartening. It's a very "I've got mine" attitude and in these times I'd hope we band together to knock this detrimental activity on the head before we get to a point like Mexican cartels openly killing police, politicians, as well as journalists. Those of us in the Randstad are most definitely affected by this and other drug crimes, and growing up in the achterhoek in the 89s I noticed they were not unaffected. I've never lived in Groningen, but I cannot imagine your city is less affected than Enschede or Zutphin, both of which struggled through the 90s with criminal drug gangs. Just because you have not been affected personally, does not make it okay, and I suspect that attitude is why others are unwilling to continue the conversation—you've made your mind up and we can't convince you. But as a typical Dutch person, I speak my mind regardless of the threat of being banned.

I lived in Enschede from 1993 to 2002 and can't recall any 'struggles'. I do remember another incident though.

According to wikipedia, the number of mistaken identity murders is very low. Less than 1 per year.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_criminele_liquidatie...

For perspective, the number of people who die from lightning strikes is about 2 per year.

Oh ok, that's fine then.

lol you're on a roll dude, whatever.

The difference between drugs and most other crimes like robberies or extortion is that drugs have a huge demand side as well as a supply side. Your idea seems to be that the illegal drug trade is a sort of daycare for criminals, and there's a certain fixed amount of criminals that will do illegal things, and therefore switch to the next-best illegal thing when the previous one gets legalized. I think that's unrealistic when you consider the money that incentivizes people to go into the illegal drug trade.

Is successfully fighting organized crime not an option?

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