Hacker News Reader

Comment by Fnoord | Hacker News Reader

> I’d definitely put Apple in the top tier of phone and laptop quality. Especially w.r.t laptops, the majority of Windows devices seem comparatively low quality. I’m not sure about their other products but I also don’t see them advertised as much.

Every MBP/MBA/MB had design flaws. From butterfly keyboard to discrete GPU, only 1 port (USB-C, for battery), etc. They fixed the keyboard problem finally, but from 2016-2019 it was terrible.

View on HN

Aside from the keyboard issues, you're talking about design choices you don't like, not design flaws. They made the choices they made, and by and large executed on them at a high degree of quality.

There's been other issues. MacBook Pros have had issues with the screen ribbon cable causing problems with the backlight (a.k.a Flexgate). Then there's been issues with batteries swelling in 2015 MBPs which impacts the trackpad too. Plus there has been countless models with GPU failures being commonplace stretching allll the way back to to iBook G3.

I would personally consider the 2018 Mac Mini to have a design flaw as the case design doesn't allow for good Bluetooth reception and using USB 3 so it would lose connection to my Magic keyboard and trackpad at least once a day which I personally found extremely frustrating. I've also had 2 iPad Pro smart keyboards fail within a year with the 2nd one only seeing light usage. It seems like whatever conductive tape Apple uses doesn't handle humidity well and corrodes quickly where I live. I'm concerned about my 2018 MBP's long term longevity keyboard aside just from the awful awful thermals that shoot the machine to T-junction in about a minute of actually pushing it but we will see. Probably the keyboard will wear out before that.

I think too many people confuse quality and metal construction. Yes, Apple builds nice aluminum enclosures but they neglect other details to achieve that.

Do you still use Apple laptops? If not what do you use?

Are Apple laptops higher quality, compared to competitors (despite design issues)? My current Macbook had the screen laminate peel off after a few years. To Apple's credit, they promptly repaired the machine at no cost. But I've had friends with similarly priced laptops (XPS, Razor, ...) who encountered similar build-quality issues, but did not receive the same level of support. Granted, all this evidence is anecdotal. I am curious to see across the board comparisons.

Plus, I'm in the market for a new laptop anyway, so this would be a valuable data point. :)

I replaced two of these screens (MBP 2015 13" and 15") under the program (ie. for free), but they refused to fix a MBP 2014 13" for free. It'd cost me 600 EUR to repair. This was in 2018. At some point they start the repair program, and some point they stop it, and IIRC the limit was 4 years for consumers here in NL. I keep using these machines (replaced some hardware on it such as keyboard, battery, screws, and my wife uses one too), though they each got their flaws. I'd consider a M1 (but my boss ain't buying me one :). Mac is still a superb UI and workflow with Unix under the hood. I think the later models are even worse for gaming, with the ones before M1 you could maybe use TB + eGPU. I just stick to a Linux machine for gaming, with Steam, all kind of emulators, and Wine.

I currently use a 2018 MBP still. I didn't personally pay for it so I don't think I could just get rid of it. Next time I think I'll go back to a Thinkpad. I don't feel like Macbooks are higher quality for the price than a comparably priced Windows laptop with some exception. Gaming laptops tend to cut build quality corners to give more specs for the money basically.

And did you have Applecare when they repaired your machine? I couldn't get them to replace my 2nd iPad Pro smart keyboard when it died since it was out of warranty.

I did not have AppleCare. Sorry to hear about your iPad Pro keyboard issues.

design flaws, same for 2-3 generations, all the way to 2021 models https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQXXqny2wEA

A bad design choice is exactly what a design flaw is though. There's no other definition. If you make bad choices, that's a flaw in your design.

End users have to live with these choices, so we get to decide what is a flaw and what is not. Focusing on thin instead of useful is a design flaw. Requiring dongles for everything is a design flaw.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a design choice you don't like, versus an objectively bad design.

When Apple removed the headphone jack from iPhones, (supposedly) in favor of making them waterproof, that was a design choice that many people rightfully disliked. However, we can imagine there was also a population of people who preferred such a tradeoff. For instance: lifeguards, sea-world trainers, deaf people. It's not a 'flaw' simply because you don't prefer it.

If you are someone who buys a diving watch, but isn't a deep sea diver, you aren't justified in complaining that the watch isn't solar powered. There are people who require (or at least prefer) such a watch, and if you aren't among them, don't buy it.

You don't get to decide what is and isn't a flaw based on your arbitrary use cases. An actual flaw is an implementation detail that is not consistent with the design specs. If Apple set out to make a phone with a working headphone jack, and the resulting product didn't have one, thats a flaw. If they set out to make a phone without a headphone jack, then it isn't a design flaw if the resulting phone doesn't have one.

You don't seem to understand that there is no arbiter of objectivity that we can rely on and that deciding what is a flawed design and what is not is completely subjective.

Removing the headphone jack "for waterproofing" is obviously defective for me because other phones that are waterproof didn't have to remove the jack and I had to buy new headphones. It wasn't for Apple though - they designed it that way so they could sell more headphones. That's how subjectivity works.

Who complained about deep sea watches not being solar powered? I don't have to make up situations to prove my point like a weasel. I just point them out as I see them and the examples I've referenced have been widely held as flaws in Apple's designs.

I do get to decide what is a flaw based on intended use cases as stated by Apple. Nobody made up any arbitrary use cases here.

"Flawed" does not simply mean "bad". It means "defective" or "broken" or "blemished" or the like. A poor design is merely unappealing to certain consumers. A flawed design fails to fully function in the manner intended.

Ah yeah, "certain users". These "certain users" who like to charge their laptop while using one peripheral. These "certain users" who use a USB hub on their only USB port. Come on. Its a flat out downgrade to what was possible in the past. We all know why they made the terrible design choice. Upselling to a non-broken device. They do the same with GB storage on their iDevices. And, all of their devices had design flaws.

> End users have to live with these choices, so we get to decide what is a flaw and what is not.

This is true, but it isn't some collective decision. Something you consider a design flaw others might see as a design win.

I have yet to see a better laptop for 90% of people who want a laptop than a MacBook Air. Battery life, portability, weight, heat production, reliability, adequate performance, price, ports.

They seem to have made all the right compromises.

"Price" seems like a stretch. Windows laptops start at something like $700 dollars cheaper for a new device.

And they are made of inferior quality components not comparable to an Air. See used prices for evidence.

I never claimed they had the same components, just that it's a stretch to think most people would obtain sufficient value by paying hundreds more.

That is possible, but a new Air was $900 for the longest time. $700 cheaper is a laptop starting at $200, and I don’t believe any laptop even $500 or less would have been made with components likely to last for many years.

It’s like that story about a poor person having to spend more in the long run buying boots every year than being able to spend a little more to buy ones that lasted many years.

You get a graphics card for $550, many types of ports... And you think the Air is Superior?

For most people who just want basic spreadsheet, web browsing, photo managing, email, word processing, or other similar purposes where a graphics card makes no difference, yes.

We are long past the times where the average person needs to even think about laptop specs other than whether or not it has a sufficient size SSD, the battery life is long, and it does not get hot.

Here you are arguing people don't need any power because all they do is "basic spreadsheet, web browsing, photo managing, email, word processing, or other similar purposes" in which case they can get 3-4 windows laptops for $199-$299 for the price of one air. If you have 3 teens that all need a laptop to do "basic spreadsheet, web browsing, photo managing, email, word processing, or other similar purposes" you can cover them all for $900 if you go non Mac or you can spend nearly $3k if you go mac.

I'm posting this from a Mac but my sister is unlikely to ever decide she's willing to spend 3x to 40% more for a laptop. She can get 2 Dells with 8gig of ram and 256gig of storage, same as the Air for under half the price of the Air. I'm not saying the Dell is as good as the Air and neither is a Kia as good as a BMW (probably) but a Kia costs 1/2 the price and will still get you from point A to point B and a $300-$500 Windows PC will also still do "basic spreadsheet, web browsing, photo managing, email, word processing, or other similar purposes"

Is the probability of the $300 windows laptop performing 5+ years the same? Will it run hot in your lap? Will you have to recharge it 3x as often? Will you have to spend time uninstalling malware first? Will it have a screen comparable to a retina screen? Will you be able to shut the lid and walk away at a moments notice?

Going back to my very first comment:

> They seem to have made all the right compromises.

Yes, a MacBook Air is not the cheapest. It doesn’t have a GPU. But my point is what it does have provides more utility overall to the average buyer per dollar spent.

And there are other manufacturers that have come out with similarly good machines at similar prices, but whether it is because of Windows’ shortcomings or now M1, the Air seems to be the ideal.

The price is poor and the performance is worse(compared to anything with a GPU). Reliability is questionable given the numerous hardware issues Apple denied over the years.

And I'm shocked you thought to mention Ports. I've been at parties where someone couldn't present a PowerPoint because of the ports on the Air.

They started at $900, had 2 USB 3.0 ports, a headphone jack, an SD card slot, and a thunderbolt 2 port for many years.

Again, note the nuance in my statement that it serves the purpose for the vast majority of laptop users and its amortized cost over many years is certainly less than other consumer laptops, as evidenced by the used market.

Nowadays, they are $1k, and they have Retina screen, 2 USB4/Thunderbolt3 ports. While the port situation may have worsened, its performance due to M1 is surely unmatched. Unless you are bothered by the port situation, it's still probably the best bet you can make for a laptop that will be a good to go for 5+ years.

Majority of laptop users won't need to hook up their computer to a TV?

And M1 still is inferior to having a gpu.

>Majority of laptop users won't need to hook up their computer to a TV?

I would be very surprised if even 10% of people connect their laptops to TVs. For those that do, thunderbolt to hdmi adapters are cheap.

> And M1 still is inferior to having a gpu.

I am sure it is, but average person sees no utility from a GPU, but they do utilize long battery life and less heat from reduced energy usage of M1.

Apple not good for power users. Got it.

So why would a consumer who isn't a power user spend more money on less?

Lighted logo?

They don’t have lighted logos, as far as I know. Mine doesn’t from a few years ago. I’ve already replied a bunch of times showing why I think the laptop is ideal for most people.

I can't imagine people paying 450$ more for a handicapped computer because battery life. Do 90% of people use a computer without it being plugged in?

I can see 90% of people buying a logo. "I say 123 take your hand and come with me bc you look so fine that I really want to make you mine"

Yes, I would easily bet the average person values not worrying about battery and heat. Coffee shops, lecture halls, airplanes, or even just around the house. It is amazingly liberating to almost never have to worry about charging it, and just be able to close the lid at a moments notice and not worry about Windows’ problems hibernating or standby or whatever.

Look at the comments in this thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27784640

And it’s not $450 more for just that. It’s $450 more for a higher quality product with higher quality components that have a higher probability of lasting many years (based on the track record of MacBook Airs).

It's not higher quality. You just said so.

Yikes.

No, I did not. Higher quality components is not the same as higher specs. For example, I would bet that Apple is using components binned for higher survival rates, than a $500 discount laptop. And I am sure other company's premium products use higher quality components too, it's not an Apple thing. But for this specific product, the all around package of an Air is very competitive.

>I've been at parties where someone couldn't present a PowerPoint because of the ports on the Air.

You go to fun parties.

I think you might be neglecting to include people that like high performance dedicated GPUs - (A) scientists, (B) engineers, (C) developers, (D) artists, (E)motion graphics types, (F) gamers.

Professionally speaking, my work is full of A-E, so, an Air is a big nope.

you think those are the majority of laptop buyers?

…that’s why I wrote 90% of people. Maybe it’s 80% or 70%, but it certainly is top of the line for the average user.

You mentioned reliability, but I remember the butterfly keyboard debacle that was denied by Apple for years.

The MacBook Air never had the butterfly keyboard.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com