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Comment by mettamage | Hacker News Reader

Psilocybin's effect can be amazing, but there were moments when I took truffles in Amsterdam that almost made me commit suicide. The sane part -- whatever was left of it -- recognized it and found an immediate way to stop it. So what actually happened is that I locked myself up in an empty room and cried (I couldn't harm myself there, because I didn't know how to get out until I sobered up a bit).

After one hour of crying I started noticing the magical effects of "we're all connected" etc. So after the bad part of my trip, the amazing things came. I don't mind that I cried, but I do mind that I was acting on a suicidal tendency that I never experienced sober.

I think I overdosed on it, being quite an inexperienced user. Because the first time I took half a dose, that was an amazing experience and it allowed me to reconnect to true child-like wonder (measured in units of whatever the smart shops in Amsterdam sell).

N = 1, I know.

All I'm saying is: be careful, have a trip sitter and a good set and setting. Don't go all out simply because you see a few positive papers.

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I hope that nobody reading this has an unsupervised psilocybin experience in 2021. We are so close to being able to pay for a professionally supervised experience (and you can almost surely find one today if you look in the right circles and come with the right intentions) - these will enhance the moments of clarity and alleviate a lot of the confusion and darkness that are part of the territory with psychedelic experience.

I've benefitted greatly from a handful of psilocybin experiences in my life. The experiences were marked by long periods of profound terror and deep sadness, but I consider these to be powerful literalizations of anxieties, fears and attachments that helped me grapple with them in new ways. That said, I've glanced at scary thoughts that don't occur to me in daily life and came close to getting in trouble when I ran outside. Get a good babysitter - even better, track down a professional.

There are absolutely no guarantees with mushrooms, regardless of set, setting, sitters, professionals or not. To say nothing about the persistent hallucinatory disorder you are risking ever time you imbibe.

Even McKenna swore off mushrooms after he went through a hellishly intense existential nightmare. His brother wrote a book about it: The brotherhood of the screaming abyss. It’s not all rainbows and happy elves, there are trips so devastatingly dark that make death seem like a merciful release.

This is what worries me: I feel that the only reason that public opinion on psilocybin is recovering is because the drug is outlawed, so only the most motivated and prepared people would be willing to seek it out, and thus there is overreporting on the positive, life-changing effects that are impossible to be had without the drug. If the drug becomes more widespread, stories of "average people" taking the drug and experiencing negative effects could surface, causing mainstream public backlash, because there are so many more people taking the drug, some without the level of preparedness of the people willing to go off the beaten path (breaking the law, finding a distributor and a trusted copilot, being in a positive state of mind), so there are so many more chances that something could go wrong.

If psilocybin is legalized I feel that the responsible thing to do is to restrict its usage to the context of therapy. I have a feeling that this kind of legalization shouldn't be equivalent to marijuana where you'd be able to walk into a store and purchase some out of curiosity.

I haven't tried psilocybin yet, because of my impressions above, and because without knowing someone who could act as a guide I don't think it would be worth it.

"If psilocybin is legalized I feel that the responsible thing to do is to restrict its usage to the context of therapy."

What are you going to do with those people who choose to use psychedelics for religious or other purposes outside of a therapeutic context? Throw them in jail? We know that doesn't work, is counterproductive, and ruins lives. People are going to do them regardless, especially as more and more people wake up to how beneficial they can be.

If there's a media backlash from the inevitable increase in negative reactions as more and more people use psychedelics, we'll have to take on that backlash head on. Hopefully the world will react more sanely than the last time there was a moral panic about psychedelics in the 1960's and 70's.

We've learned a lot since then, there's a lot more information in the public about these substances, and they're not as closely associated with the counterculture, the antiwar movement, and antiestablishment sentiment this time around. They're actually much more mainstream now, and as allies there are many suffering people and even veterans who see the healing potential of these substances, so it's much harder to demonize their users as mere druggies and freaks, as was done in the 1960's and 70's.

As every successive year of the Psychedelic Renaissance passes and more and more positive results come out of all the research that's going on in to them, I'm feeling more and more hopefull that they'll fully become part of the mainstream culture in some fashion (starting with therapeutic and religious use), and that there'll be no major backlash.

> and you can almost surely find one today if you look in the right circles and come with the right intentions

It would be great to know more about how to make this happen

https://maps.org or, more specifically, https://integration.maps.org

https://www.eleusiniaretreat.com/meditating-on-mushrooms-wit...

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759681

Tripping alone can be wonderful, just don’t take too much.

Don't come to Amsterdam and take drugs without knowing how to deal with it, please. This kind of stupidity is exactly what got psilocybin mushrooms banned here.

I'm Dutch and I live there (born and raised, I've seen way too many examples how drugs can screw people over because of being raised in Amsterdam). Nevertheless, it doesn't matter whether I live there or not. Experimenting with psilocybin is not easy, even when you're experienced with weed and alcohol.

Here was my thought process:

First time: I did half, that went amazingly well

Second time: I did a full dose, and I had the suicidal bad trip experience

Third time: full dose, got into a bad trip state again (just bad trip). I recognized the experience and knew what would happen, how to deal with it. It was completely fine. It was a wonderful experience.

Fourth time: potential explosive dangerous situation with the other person who used it (also did it 4 times, 4th time together with me as well). Crisis averted, having a tripsitter in this case (like in the second case) was an absolute must.

These experiences has happened in a span of 3 years, spread out quite evenly. I took it because of the research on psilocybin.

Truffles has been my first psychedelic. Ultimately, for me it has had positive effects.

It is what it is. Be careful, have a tripsitter. Not having a tripsitter was the biggest mistake I've made.

For other folx reading this, if you're keen on trying this, try to get ahold of 4-HO-DMT instead - it is an identical experience to psilocybin (psilocybin converts to 4-HO-DMT in your body, which causes its effects), but can be dosed exactly to the milligram, greatly reducing your chances of accidentally taking too much.

Also prevents the stomach pains of digesting lots of dry fibrous mushrooms. For the same reason, the experience with 4-HO-DMT can be shorter/quicker than with mushrooms but not by much.

I’ve found the following to be key in a good experience:

1. Do not take too much. This cannot be overstated. You don’t need to take 4 tabs of LSD, you don’t need to take a 1/4 oz of shrooms. Take the right, safe amount. Usually 1 tab or a 1/16th oz will do for me. Double that if I’m feeling up to it. I’m a larger person too.

2. Set/setting. Are you emotionally and physically prepared to go on a trip that could get _very_ complicated? Lots of people think they are when they're not.

Trip sitters can be helpful, but they do not guarantee a good trip by any means. Sometimes a person being around you that isn’t on the same plane of existence can make a situation needlessly uncomfortable. I’ve had a moment where we had to ask a trip sitter to leave mid-trip when things went sour. Once he left, we felt we could deal with things more naturally.

If it’s one of your first few times, a trip sitter could be great. Make sure it’s someone everyone in the group deeply trusts and likes. I’ve found I have better experiences without them personally.

> Not having a tripsitter was the biggest mistake I've made.

Agreed.

The problem is that if a person wants to learn how to deal with it legally, they have no other possibility than to come to a place like Amsterdam.

Wouldn't the solution rather be for Amsterdam to create a "newbie coffee shops" or something similar?

1. Create safe newbie-friendly places that provide an opportunity to safely experience a legal drug X.

2. Mandate that for a foreigner to buy a legal drug X, they must have an ID-like document that says they are experienced with X.

3. Once a tourist experiences X in a newbie-friendly place, they award him/her with an ID-like document that enables the tourist to buy X on their own.

Surely that create more jobs and opportunities in Amsterdam than the "bug off!" rhetoric I've seen from the local Amsterdam government.

To be clear, the staff in coffee shops do ask you if it's your first time and give you guidelines for how to use them safely, and usually informative leaflets are attached. At least in tourist places.

I was actually really impressed with the effort to educate people about truffles last time I went.

I've heard from friends that this exactly happens with DMT experiences. I'm not sure if DMT is legal here (they make it themselves, the ingredients are legal). Yet, they somehow advertize it publicly (?).

He did it in the south of The Netherlands.

"This kind of stupidity is exactly what got psilocybin mushrooms banned here."

Then why didn't alcohol, which causes way more problems than mushrooms, also get banned?

Downvoters and skeptics: You do realize that alcohol is involved in countless suicides, homicides, and other violence (not to mention the ravages of alcoholism), don't you?

It's the worst substance of the two, by far.

Amsterdam is one of the drinking capitals of Europe. Way more touists come to Amsterdam to get drunk than ever have to eat mushrooms, and they've always caused way more problems. But alcohol will never be banned there. Why the double standard?

Because there are some big money interests that don't want alcohol regulated (much) or banned.

There was an interesting study released in 2010 which attempted to measure the total cost, beyond just health harm, of different drugs. https://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/dnutt-lanc...

The UK government did not like that study, because it showed that many illegal drugs were ultimately much less overall harm to society (the direct users as well as those around them and the healthcare system) than alcohol.

Did the study take into account the prevalence of each substance? Alcohol would be the most prevalent by a wide margin. If it's normalized for prevalence however, then the results are mighty interesting.

Yes, it was normalized. It was a very comprehensive, well thought out study. Of course the researchers could still get the results they wanted by choosing which metrics to include in the comparisons, but the choices attempted to balance individual cost (physical, mental) with social (family suffering, divorce) and societal (burden on society from underperforming people, shared health costs, etc.)

The takeway was that alcohol was one of the worst, along with crack cocaine and heroin; ecstacy was really not bad, and weed was a bit worse but still nowhere near as overall costly/damaging as alcohol.

Century ago United States tried to ban alcohol, and it simply didn't work - it is way too easy to produce it from innocent food products. Exotic mushrooms or artificial drugs are much easier to ban.

Mushrooms is one of the easiest drugs to procure.

Some species like Psilocybe semilanceata grow in the wild, both in Europe and North America. You can just pick them if you know the type of habbitats to look for.

You can buy grow kits semi-legally (grey area, might vary on where you live) and you don't need any extra equipment. You get a plastic box and you literally just add water.

If you want to save money, you can buy only the spores. Then you just need some substrate which you can buy either at garden supply store or at a supermarket. Biggest issue is ensuring sterility, so a pressure cooker is recommended, but there are ways around that.

I'd say it's easier to grow shrooms at home than it is to make alcohol. You don't need any specific equiment like a still for distilled drinks, and you don't need any trial and error like you do when making fermented drinks. I know you could make alcohol without any equipment, but the end result will probably be quite poor. Meanwhile the shrooms grown without any equipment will be the same as any.

"Exotic mushrooms or artificial drugs are much easier to ban."

You can ban them, but your ban won't be any more effective than the ban on alcohol.

It's easy to get pretty much any drug you want.. especially in Amsterdam.

All the ban does is moves the market underground, gets organized crime involved, makes it much harder for users to tell they're getting what they paid for (possibly leading to all sorts of adverse effects like overdoses), and ruins people's lives when they're thrown in jail.

We know drug bans don't work and are counterproductive.

It's sad to see the Netherlands buy in to anti-drug hysteria after being one of the leading lights in constructive drug policy and harm-reduction for so long.

Exactly this. What happens south of US border is absolutely the same as the effect of 1920s prohibition. Communism and prohibition both looks good and neither works.

How, exactly, is the average person supposed to do them, then? It isn't like most countries let you walk into a shop and buy them. Realistically, it is the only way many people will ever get to do them legally. And realistically, if you are wanting to do psychedelics, you might not even find the same sort (I've generally found more opportunities to do LSD than truffles or mushrooms, for example).

Your words are kind of like telling young folks not to go and buy alcohol without knowing how to deal with it. The only way to learn is to take them.

"It isn't like most countries let you walk into a shop and buy them."

No. But you can walk in to the forest and pick them.

You really do need to identify them properly, though, and not just pick random mushrooms.

For help in doing that I can highly recommend Alan Rockefeller's excellent videos on psilocybin mushroom identification: [1] [2]

Another option is getting mushroom spores (which are legal in most states in the US) and growing them yourself.[3][4]

There are also various other legal psychedelics, like morning glory seeds[5], hawaiian baby woodrose seeds, and salvia divinorum[6].

Some sorts of breathwork (like holotropic breathing) is actually effective at inducing altered states of consciousness comparable for some people to psychedelics. It's not clear how safe such breathwork is long-term, as not enough serious studies of it has been done, but at least breathing is perfectly legal everywhere.. last I checked.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInqVRRva7M

[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs

[3] - https://old.reddit.com/r/unclebens/

[4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gJTeTT-pE

[5] - https://erowid.org/plants/morning_glory/morning_glory.shtml

[6] - https://erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia.shtml

"No. But you can walk in to the forest and pick them." If you live by such forests. I happen to now (and do), but I haven't always had such a luxury.

And again, lots of folks don't have the luxury of growing. Just because there are other "legal" options doesn't mean much: These are going to act differently than what you get in Amsterdam.

I have no doubt that breathwork can make altered states, but I very highly doubt it is comparable to drugs. And again, this isn't really going to prepare you for, say, truffles in Amsterdam. If you don't like breathwork, you can just stop and do something else. If you don't like where you are at on drugs, you just have to wait.

"I have no doubt that breathwork can make altered states, but I very highly doubt it is comparable to drugs."

I was super skeptical myself.. so much so that even though I'd heard of holotropic breathwork at least a couple of decades ago I didn't bother to try it because it just sounded like complete bullshit.

But I did eventually try it, about a year ago, and I was amazed that it did in fact induce a state that was comparable to at least a low dose of psychedelics. Some people have reported even more powerful effects.

I aborted my self-experimentation out of concern that it might cause long-term health effects (as, paradoxically, hyperventilation -- which is what holotorpic breathwork mostly consists of -- can cause oxygen deprivation to the brain) but at least now, one year later, I haven't experienced any adverse health effects that I can detect, so might give it another try.

The really long-term effects (like 10 or 20 years later) are still unknown, though, as there just haven't been any serious long-term studies of it.

Another interesting possibility (which is again, mostly unstudied by science yet) is combining breathwork with other means of inducing altered states of consciousness.

Just like any other even remotely dangerous activity, having someone trusted with experience is the best way. Otherwise start very low and wade in. I would ABSOLUTELY tell young folks to not just go buy alcohol without knowing somewhat how to deal with it. Alcohol at least has enough cultural guard rails that a kid will generally know that drinking an entire liter is a bad idea.

So I’ve been this idiot.

Drugs aren’t really my thing, I’m more of a beer guy, but the first time I was in Amsterdam I experimented with edibles.

The first couple of times was just kind of nice, chilled me out, had a good vibe etc.

Then I got some from a different shop, and it was a nightmare! Headaches, heart racing, hallucinations, and it hurt to open my eyes. I thought my heart was going to explode.

To make matters worse I was sharing a tiny Air BnB (one room basically) with two other friends and there was nowhere to go, so I was just curled up in a ball tripping out while they drank and played cards, for hours!

Just horrendous lol, agree with the other commenters that there needs to be a safe way to try stuff like this out with people who know how to deal with somebody having a bad trip (as opposed to pointing and laughing, as my friends did).

"Then I got some from a different shop, and it was a nightmare! Headaches, heart racing, hallucinations, and it hurt to open my eyes. I thought my heart was going to explode."

You overdosed. Fortunately, the effect of overdosing on cannabis is purely psychological. You may feel miserable and be super paranoid, but there aren't any actual adverse physical effects.

Under such circumstances, if one is 100% sure only cannabis has been ingested and nothing else, and when there really are no adverse physical effects one could reassure the tripper that everything is going to be ok.

Hugs might be welcome, as might other physical contact like holding hands. Try changing the environment to somewhere more pleasant and more peaceful. Going out from a crowded party to peaceful nature might be a good idea. Changing music or putting on more pleasant music might help, as can looking at books of beautiful art or other fascinating images.

Something else that can be really good is having the tripper play a simple physical, acoustic instrument like a drum or a guitar, or to dance, chant or sing. This is an under-utilized and underappreciated technique that can dramatically change the mood as the tripper expresses themselves on a more primal level than speech.

Finally, in difficult trips (whether on cannabis or any other psychedelic) sometimes the best thing to do is not to try to run away but to go towards the difficulty and face it and try to learn from it. What exactly is it that you really fear? Why? Can you embrace it and surrender? Very often doing so will lead to a complete transformation of the experience from one of existential dread to bliss as one "dies" and is reborn.

I've just concluded it's more difficult to dose psilocybe truffles than mushrooms. The psilocybin content in the former is wildly inconsistent. I had two experiences, shared with a friend, spaced months apart using the same variety, vendor, dose (strong) and preparation method- The first was overwhelming and mystical, the second left us struggling to identify any effect beyond placebo. I spoke with the very friendly shopkeeper afterwards, also an avid psilocybe user, and she has also concluded sometimes they're just duds and prefers mushrooms for that reason. In your case, you got a scarier surprise as I guess you had the order reversed.

To respond to the somewhat rude "don't come to Amsterdam and do drugs if you don't know what you're doing" post:

You have a strong psychedelic substance being legally sold with totally unknown strenghth (as 'grams of truffles' doesn't count). What could go wrong? These products definitely need better labelling. I've also seen ridiculously strong pot edibles being sold in Amsterdam with insufficient labelling, but I digress.

This particular doseage mistake might not have been made if mushrooms were legally available as their psilocybin content is much more predictable. ("I did X grams last time and that was fine so I'll do X grams again!" is mostly reasonable) The problems are exacerbated by prohibition.

> I think I overdosed on it, being quite an inexperienced user. Because the first time I took half a dose, that was an amazing experience

Why did you go for a full dose when the half-dose was amazing? Did you expect a different outcome?

Every time I took truffles I had a 'dirtier' and less predictable experience, more often than not they were negative. At the time I was very experienced with wet and dry mushrooms so maybe it was a nocebo.

I have very unpleasant experiences on low doses. Maybe it is because the truffles are so weak.

What dose on that first experience?

Anyone know if dose needs to be scaled with body weight?

Dosage is usually measured in grams for the dried out mushrooms. There's no standard scale because the amount of psilocybin in each mushroom can vary quite a lot. Counter-intuitively, larger fruits tend to be less potent than smaller ones. The amount you take should depend on the kind of experience you want. Body weight shouldn't make a big difference. (These assume potent mushrooms such as Cubensis, Liberty Cap, Wavy Cap). Main effects kick in around 60-90 minutes after eating.

1/4-1/2g: microdose. You should still be able to function pretty normally on this.

1.0-1.5g: Recreational dose, lasting a couple of hours.

2.0-3.5g: Deep trip, lasting 3-6 hours.

4-5g+: Hero dose. Not recommended for beginners.

My first dose was 3.0g (cubensis) and it was great. I don't really see the point on microdosing and I see mushrooms as more medicine than a recreational drug. I usually take 3.5g as they're typically sold as 7g (1/4oz), which is 2 doses.

How often do you take them? I have access all the time (hopefully dried P. cubensis are not toxic after months in a vacuum container), but they're not addicting and I keep forgetting about them :) My first dose was 7g (was supposed to be 4, but my old kitchen scale didn't measure properly) and I can assure everyone curious that it's not fun, lol

Around 2 or 3 times a year. Not took any for 8 months. I also use DMT occasionally. Last time was about 6 months ago.

I've had 7g myself and yeah, I wouldn't recommend it. 3.5g is enough.

In my experience it is better to measure the number of shrooms you are taking as the max. dose per shroom is pretty consistent vs. measuring the total weight.

If only Psilocybin was available as a substance so we could just measure μg directly.

If you pick fresh this may be a good idea.

When you buy dried shrooms, it's not easy to tell what one fruit is because they shrivel up and break easily. Some sellers break them up deliberately - if some fruits are more potent than others, then by mixing them, the total psilocybin content is more likely to be similar in every package they sell.

Interestingly, some vendors sell "mushroom pills" and "mushroom chocolate bars," where they do this on a bigger scale - mill the mushrooms down into powder form and then thoroughly mix the powder to give an even distribution. The idea then is that each piece of chocolate in the bar contains the same amount of psilocybin - and with some trial and error taste testing, they can recommend how many pieces of chocolate to have for the desired effect. This also doesn't give you the same nausea you typically get by eating the dried mushrooms directly, which might give you a better trip.

The strain of mushroom taken can also greatly influence the experience. Some strains are far more potent than others.

First experience: half

Bad experience: a whole one

Smart shops in Amsterdam have a pretty standardized dose that they sell. I forgot the actual amount of grams.

This does not match my experience. I've found they have beginner, intermediate, or advanced truffles, presumably types with different natural dosages of psilocybin in the different types of Truffles. I've only taken the beginner ones and had a good time.

I think in both cases we took an intermediate one. But I don't fully remember tbh.

When I went, they had the doses already set out like beginner, intermediate, advanced. Whatever you took, they recommended taking half and then waiting about 30 minutes. If you felt ok, you could take the other half.

They should always recommend beginner, if you haven't had experience with truffles before.

Just google psilocybin dosage erowid...

Were you on any other drugs at the same time you took mushrooms?

Did you have a good set and setting when you took them?

Set and setting was neutral. I was curious that's all.

Back then I didn't mix drugs.

Now I sometimes mix alcohol with weed in certain social situations (don't do it, this is a personal failing on my side).

"Set and setting was neutral. I was curious that's all."

Your curiosity was part of your set (or mindset), but it's still not clear what the setting was (ie. where you did it).

On the subject of mindset only, it definitely helps to make it as positive as possible (same with setting too, by the way). A neutral mindset could easily get to a negative mindset once you start tripping.. it's harder for that to happen if you have a very positive mindset.

It's also good to have an experienced trip sitter you trust and like, to have constructive intentions for the trip, and to prepare in other ways (such as being in a comfortable, safe, and familiar environment at a time when you don't have any responsibilities to do anything else than enjoy yourself and don't have to deal with any people you aren't extremely comfortable around).

Some other things that can help a lot are to have a good playlist of music to listen to (see the Johns Hopkins Psilocybin playlist[1] for a good example).

Other props that have been successfully used to guide trips in a constructive direction were photographs of loved ones to look at during the trip, and a rose to look at towards the end of the trip.

The time you trip can also influence how it goes. Some people like to time it so that they get to see the sunrise towards the end. Others prefer to trip during the day. Tripping in nature can be very nice..

In modern therapeutic contexts, the trip is done in a comfortable apartment with pleasing decorations, with a mask you put over your eyes to shut out the light and headphones with a carefully curated playlist (so you can go deep inside), and a therapist at your side.

This is a far cry from how most people trip recreationally, where they might be in a party, club, or festival among people they don't know with music they can't control or just out in the streets. That can be a recipe for disaster.

[1] - https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/inside-the-joh...

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