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Comment by chmod600 | Hacker News Reader

I believe this comes from confusion between freedom as a choice with consequences, and freedom as a choice without consequences.

The latter definition has taken hold over the last few decades because it is seen as offensive to reinforce good choices. Suggesting that people maintain a good diet and exercise is seen as offensive to obese people. Suggesting that people marry a good, stable partner before having children is seen as offensive to single mothers. Suggesting that people focus on jobs and careers that provide stable income is seen as crushing someone's self-actualized aspirations. And suggesting that any of these groups be responsible for the outcomes of their choices is unthinkable.

When such basic advice is off-limits, what cultural infrastructure could we possibly have?

Edit: removed distracting example.

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The cultural infrastructure we had was extremely poor. We put a ton of focus into shaming and punishing people for bad behavior, and it just didn't work. Fat shaming has resulted in even more obese people. Punishing unmarried couples didn't increase the number of stable partnerships at all. We lost the war on drugs.

I don't agree with the current trends either ("it's completely ok to do bad thing X!"). However, in addition to good advice for individuals, we need to keep trying to create cultural infrastructure that really does work.

> Punishing unmarried couples didn't increase the number of stable partnerships at all.

That’s a bad example. Family stability plummeted after the sexual revolution, even as access to birth control and abortion made family planning easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_S...

I don't know that the sexual revolution correlation holds up as well as the liberalization of divorce laws, which precedes the sex stuff by a decade or more.

I agree changing attitudes towards divorce was the main factor. I was imprecise in my wording, I was fishing for phraseology that would encompass both.

"Let's trap people in bad marriages" is exactly the social infrastructure I'm criticizing.

What’s a “bad marriage?” I think there are some that are truly bad and should be dissolved. But I think in many cases (perhaps the majority), people are simply indulging their own selfishness and poor impulse control at the expense of their kids. Americans highly prioritize (to my eyes, as a foreigner, childish) notions of self actualization and individual happiness over duty to family. And then there’s the kids whose parents never got married, typically because the father is stuck in some sort of extended adolescence.

My siblings in law come from one of those middle/lower middle class primarily white towns you sometimes read about, where two-parent families have declined tremendously. The devastation to the kids is real. Comfortable finances dissolve into financial strain. Lack of stability affects kids’ performance in school. Boys, in particular, suffer growing up without fathers to keep them in line. (It wasn’t until I had boys of my own that I realized how differently they often relate to their mothers versus their fathers. And trust me, we’re not modeling traditional gender roles at my house—my wife’s a scary trial lawyer who pays our mortgage.)

Interesting reflections. It probably goes hand in hand with the US culture where individual mobility (both geographically and economically) seems to be highly regarded (which also has many positive effects). I live in Sweden. Since the late 19th century or so, and especially after WW2, we’re very influenced by the US and I can see the same tendencies here.

You really can't compare with Sweden. Sweden is a much more secular country and marriage is for a lot of people just a nice one-off ceremony get together totally devoid of any religious feelings. It doesn't carry close to the same weight as in the US.

I think it is a remarkable testament to your patience that you continue to treat this guy as if he is interested in arguing in good faith, and not as a hardcore ideologue & culture-warrior.

This guy is one of the most valuable contributors to the site, all the more so because we disagree about so much politically; I have almost total faith that he means what he says, and, especially on politically-tinged topics (also compiler theory), tend to learn a lot from him.

Always happy for the opportunity to say that, so thanks!

Well, in that case I suppose this has actually been a testament to poor judgment on both our parts.

I’ll admit to being a gun nut and originalist, but “breakdown of two parent families is bad” is a completely mainstream position among non-white immigrants in the US.

Hacker News invites paleoconservatives, neoconservatives, reactionaries, fascists, etc. because the moderation team and owners are cryptofascists. It's that simple. To quote Genesis, they know what they like and they like what they know.

I suspect the lower stress of acceptance, even when it goes overboard in cases where the thing can actually be harmful, still leads to better outcomes. Stress is a well-documented factor in weight gain, for example. My covid 19 after years of losing weight is proof!

The loss came from self-acceptance. I stopped beating myself up when I slipped up, and I stopped letting other people shame me for it. That was good for 50 pounds, and I'm headed back down now that I'm vaccinated and getting as much back on track as I can. I don't have data handy, but I suspect shaming has killed more people and ruined more lives than acceptance.

i think a carrot and stick approach would have worked.

if the shaming is the stick, but where is the carrot?

they should be provided alternatives and policies that prod towards the better options.

"is seen as" x 4

By who?

I'm pretty sure they still teach the difference between passive and active voice in school. Passive voice is great if you want to paint in broad strokes without naming names so people can't actually discuss your points. This is choir-preaching. Or argument by implication if you want a secular term.

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