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Comment by tartoran | Hacker News Reader

Yes, I am aware of that and do care for justice but am afraid to talk abour it IRL to be honest. To be publically acused of antisemitism for being critical to Israel could be a real nightmare Im not ready to go through. I am no antisemitist, on the contrary, some of my favorite people are jewish. Am I a coward? I think so but I have a family and want to hold onto my job. Here on HN I am not afraid to comment because this account is not tied to my real identity.

Ps There is one think I do which I know is directly connected to this. I boycot Israeli food products, mostly grown on occupied lands. The inpact is close to nil but it’s the most I can do at the moment.

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> I am aware of that and do care for justice but am afraid to talk abour it IRL to be honest. To be publically acused of antisemitism for being critical to Israel could be a real nightmare Im not ready to go through. ... Am I a coward? I think so but I have a family and want to hold onto my job. Here on HN I am not afraid to comment because this account is not tied to my real identity.

You're not a coward; you're human. Here's what I tell myself: There are people who sacrificed far more for freedom than whatever I risk - anger, rejection by some, even my job and reputation. However, I only have one job and one reputation, and I'm not sacrificing them for nothing.

And regardless, taking a dramatic stand rarely accomplishes anything. Listening to others, being curious and open about their positions, and then responding thoughtfully accomplishes much more with much less risk.

> I am no antisemitist, on the contrary, some of my favorite people are jewish.

FWIW, this is a classic line of prejudiced people: 'I'm not anti-X; some of my best friends are X.' There was even a public service commercial in the 1980s that used almost that exact line. Whatever your thoughts, I wouldn't say it. It sounds defensive, for one thing. Say something affirmative - e.g., 'Israelis have a right to peace and justice, as do Palestinians.'

If you are prejudiced (I have no idea; I'm not drawing a conclusion based on one sentence in an online post; and I am certainly nobody's judge), it's ok. We all are to various degrees - the point for me is to be aware that I am human too, that I have this human potential and to be aware of it and notice it, and also to be aware that I also have the human potential for much greater things, and I have a responsibility to embrace that and change my perspective.

> FWIW, this is a classic line of prejudiced people: 'I'm not anti-X; some of my best friends are X.'

On the other hand, this is just a trope that needs to die. It's a non sequitur and is in fact an example of kafkatrap:

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap

I'm not anti-Javascript, some of my favorite websites are written in Javascript.

I agree this is a real issue. Even if it’s just voicing support under a pseudonym (such as I’ve done here), it’s better than nothing. The younger generations are definitely more aware of the issues Palestinians are facing and more vocal about putting an end to it. That offers me some hope.

You should know that saying some of my favorite people are jewish is something that sounds pretty bad. The idea that you would be branded as an anti-semite and lose your job because you are critical of Israel also sounds bad.

A lot of people are critical of Israel's policies, including many Israelis. There is absolutely no problem with that.

Why is it bad if I admire jews? I think this is going too far, I am not ill intended towards anyone but you just gave me an example why as a non jew I should stay quiet if I don’t want to be labeled as anything or god knows what else

Do you hold the same views about all races?

E.g. "It's not bad if i admire [ blacks / whites / asians / aryans / han chinese]?

> The idea that you would be branded as an anti-semite and lose your job because you are critical of Israel also sounds bad.

Sounds very plausible instead. The original cancel culture is exactly that used to silence critics of Israel- the accusation of antisemitism has been used for decades to terminate careers. People have learned very well to keep their mouths shut.

There's lots of critics of Israel. Can you give me 3 (or 10) examples or people who lost their jobs as a result of some reasonable criticism of Israel's policies? Weren't there recent petitions in Google and Amazon to boycott Israel? Did anyone lose their jobs? And this is political activism at your workplace, which isn't exactly the same thing as stating your opinion outside work. If you choose to bring politics into your workplace anything can happen.

Let me tell you how this sounds to me as a Jewish person, it sounds like some sort of conspiracy theory that is alluding that "we" are somehow pulling some invisible strings to get people fired for being justly critical of Israel. I could be paranoid but honestly I've earned the right to be paranoid.

I would fight for anyone's right to criticize Israel. I would also fight for the discussion to be based on facts and for Israel not to be singled out for "preferential" treatment. There is no problem being critical of Israel. Antisemitism is a big problem. If you don't feel like you can draw this line just study the question before commenting. It's really not that hard.

Let me give you a specific example. If you say Israel is intentionally trying to inflict damage on Gaza in order to deter Hamas and the population from re-engaging Israel in the future and that's a questionable tactic. I would say this is reasonable criticism (at least should be discussed). If you say Israel should not be evicting Arabs from their homes at the moment from disputed territories even if they are legally entitled to, or you want to debate said legality. Fair game IMO. However if you say look how many Palestinians died vs. Israelis in the latest round of violence and use it as a measure of morality that is problematic. In war each side tries to minimize damage to their side and inflict as much damage on the other side. People saying this are either incredibly naive or are twisting the (sad) reality to fit some agenda IMO. I don't think what I am saying here is that you can only have a voice if you agree with me. You can even choose to disagree with me on the question of war and proportionality. But you better come to this discussion with some good supporting arguments. There is certainly a lot of history and a lot of room for debate about this.

You can hold any position on Israel up to and including that it does not have the right to exist and still not be anti-Semitic. I do not agree with the formation or expansion of Israel, including the Balfour Declaration. I am not anti-Semitic.

In fact I think anti-Semitism is a very real problem. Historically and now. It also hurts the legitimate arguments against Zionism because invariably real anti-Semites show up and become the focal point.

Sure you can hold any position or opinion.

John Lennon sang:

"Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace"

Nobody has banned John Lennon from the radio last time I checked.

Until a position is backed up with some rational arguments it's sort of just your opinion. Why should we care? If you are going public with a certain position and advocating for action the burden of proof is on you. Especially if there are consequences. There's plenty of nonsense going around that doesn't stand the slightest scrutiny. But you can "hold" any of those positions wrt/ Israel or any other topic.

This is a non sequitur and a straw man. I don’t agree with the Balfour Declaration because it was strongly opposed by the Palestinians, 90% of the population at the time.

I have no idea why you are quoting John Lennon. It has nothing to do with the topic.

It's good that you are backing your opinion with facts. That's a great start to a rational debate. I don't think the muslims in the region were referred to as Palestinians at the time but it is a fact that they were the majority (I could nitpick specific regions and numbers but sure, as a rule I'd agree). Do you have any reference to their strong opposition? (it sounds reasonable though, so quite likely, but let's differentiate facts from opinions). My counter is that the reason the Jewish population was a minority at the time was that Jews were expelled from the area and prevented from returning. I do support the Balfour Declaration. There are other reasons for my support, such as the persecution of Jews in other countries.

Let's say we have this debate and you convince me, and I agree with you, that the Balfour Declaration was "wrong"(?) because it's not "right" to say people X should take location Y as their country while the locals are not consulted with. Not sure that really gets us anywhere. Lots of countries "exist" without Britain bothering to have declared that they should be countries and lots of countries exist because Britain and France arbitrarily made them so. Saudi Arabia pretty much owns its existence to similar circumstances, the British war on the Ottoman empire. But sure it is part of the long and relevant history of the region.

You can also say the UN should not have passed resolution 181. Again, not sure where that's gonna lead us.

If anyone is still reading this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration for reference.

If you have issues with the Balfour Declaration presumably those should be taken up with Britain?

Anyhow, at the end of the day, I think you're saying that despite the long and documented history of the Jewish people to the land of Israel the fact that the Jewish people were a minority in the area for a lengthy amount of time means that they have no right to that area at all. My counter would be that pretty much any country anywhere in the world doesn't actually satisfy your requirements and that if anything the Jewish people have a stronger "right" to that land than most other people living in other countries. And then you'll disagree. And we'll agree to disagree. And the question of how to resolve the situation today remains.

My source on that number is from the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balfour_Declarati...

That other countries have also engaged in colonialism, doesn’t mean we have to support it, especially modern day colonialism.

We won’t agree on a solution or even the problem, but my point in this particular case is you can be against Israel as a geopolitical entity and not be anti-Semitic.

I agree. You stated your case, you supported it, you're making good arguments. There's no problem.

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