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Comment by dsr_ | Hacker News Reader

I'd like to point out that:

- the term kosher applies directly to food, not technology; this is a metaphor

- the insularity of a particular subgroup of Jews should not be considered to apply to all the rest of us. Even for most Orthodox Jews, turning off your phone Friday evening and turning it back on Saturday evening is a perfectly cromulent option.

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  > the term kosher applies directly to food, not
  > technology; this is a metaphor

Kosher means "fit for purpose" and is often used for items other than food. For one example, during the Sukot holiday it is customary to erect and eat in tents. Due to shody construction and safety issues, not to mention adherence to biblical prescription of certain tent features, there exist "kosher" tents which one can buy and know that it is fit for purpose.

Source: דובר עברית

Yeah, here's the thing: I'll happily use it that way when I'm talking with other Jews.

But most of the world is goyim, and an awful lot of people don't know what they're talking about. They hear "kosher phone" and immediately their minds turn to wondering if there are phones that Jews can't use. I have been asked on multiple occasions if I only buy kosher pickles, and once whether it was cultural appropriation for non-Jews to buy kosher salt.

So when someone decides to label a phone as kosher, I think an explanatory note is in order. There are no halachic requirements for phones that don't also apply to lights and fireplaces.

>But most of the world is goyim

I doubt you meant to use it this way, but that word is seen by many as an offensive slur against non-Jews. It's frequently used in a way that has racist and derogatory undertones. Googling "goyim" returns some colorful results.

I have never used or heard "goyim" used in a way which meant anything other than "everybody in the world who does not think of themselves as Jewish".

I suppose one could use it derogatorily, but that's not my experience.

I assure you that context is everything. When Jews say "Jews", we just mean Jews. And when lots of goyim say "Jews", they mean "sub-human monsters".

Please feel free to censor your own language. And if you see me use "goyim" to be offensive, feel free to call me out on that.

I'm glad you've never heard "goyim" used in a derogatory manner, whereas I have. Tone is difficult to infer from plain text. To avoid confusion, I recommend you use other groups and races' preferred labels when speaking about them in public. This is advice I follow and have found to be a good rule.

Just so you know I'm not making this up; Merriam-Webster lists "goy" as "sometimes disparaging":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goy

Use of this word in 2017 got Huffington Post in trouble with the Anti-Defamation League, and others who felt it was over the line:

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/huffpost-bannon-headlin...

I agree that HuffPo chose the wrong term there. There's nothing particularly apropos about Bannon not being Jewish, and HuffPo is not a Jewish organization.

I repeat: feel free to call out people who are being derogatory, no matter what the term. Banning words regardless of context hurts everyone.

so this is my critique of you here. You are talking about the need to "code switch" in terms of talking "jewish" and talking "english". i.e. "kosher" when one talks "jewish" can mean one thing, but when one talks "english" it generally about food. But then, you don't code switch about "goyim" when it should be simply "non-jews" if one is trying to speak "english". And this is where the concept can be insulting. if one is claiming one is speaking english, using the word goyim isn't simply saying "non jews", its about othering them. i.e. you are purposefully not code switching (or am, depending on one's POV) that term. That can be problematic.

I'd also disagree that kosher just means food in plain english. Plenty of non jews are known to say "that's not kosher" (i.e. as in "not right") in things that have nothing to do with food.

Googling "Jew" returns, or did in the past, some colorful results. Humans gonna human.

What does halachic mean?

ha-lacha is "the law", specifically religious law. halachic, then, is "with respect to Jewish law".

The equivalent in Islam is sharia and fiqh.

The equivalent in Catholicism is called canon law.

Small correction. "Ha-lacha" would be "the phlegm". "Halacha" (without the separation of the leading "ha") is "the (proper) way (to act)".

"Ha lecha" would mean "the phlegm". "Ha lacha" could mean "the moist", but I think GP tried to use the apostrophe to lengthen the first syllable in the single word "halacha" so it would read HAlacha and not haLAcha.

Good source, an even better source is the very first Mishna in Tractate Sukkah [0] which uses the Hebrew form of the word kosher several times to refer to a Sukka. It's used as both an adjective ("כשרה") and a verb ("מכשירין" - using the Aramaic form of pluralization).

Interestingly, the opposite of kosher in this mishna is פסול, which I'd translate as "invalid".

Also interesting is the apparent relationship between the word כשר and the modern Hebrew מכשיר, meaning "device", or "thing that does something specific".

Edit: took me another moment to realize the root is used a lot in modern Hebrew, such as in the word כושר (ironically pronounced like the English kosher), which means (physical) fitness.

[0] https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D...

In Israel these phones are referred to as "פלאפון כשר" [1] which most definitely means Kosher Phone, so the name is apt despite the lack of religious rigor. It's definitely aimed at the ultra-orthodox communities.

[1] Pashkevil from an ultra-orthodox community warning people off the internet and not to use non-kosher phones: https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%98%D7%A8...

As someone who grew up Haredi enough that my first cell phone was a so called "kosher phone" but not haredi enough that I would take that pashkevil seriously... who comes up with this stuff? Like... cell phones cause cancer? I thought everyone knew that was women's elbows?? I guess both can cause cancer, but only one can be "enemy #1"

> turning off your phone Friday evening and turning it back on Saturday evening is a perfectly cromulent option.

Everyone here is discussing Hebrew and semantics but I see what you did.

How is the rule of not using your phone during that time managed when someone has to be on call in a company? And as a doctor? (I guess that the restrictions are different)

sabbath observant jews generally aren't on call for tech matters. Doctors are on call, and will answer their phone, but that's because there's a fundamental difference between tech on call and doctor on call. one is directly about saving lives, the other is not.

It's common to see orthodox jewish doctors who are on call, walk out of a synagouge while praying to take a call. Or for emergency medics to have a walkie talkie that they can be buzzed on if they have to go to an emergency call.

We could get into a discussion about the details of what that means and how a society can function when people would die if certain things aren't taken care of (say maintaining the electrical grid), but that's beyond the scope of this forum. At the most simplistic level, I'd equate it to round the world tech support. We don't need people in one place being able to stay up 24/7 to provide 24/7 support, we can have people located in many different parts of the world handing off the baton as planet rotates. So the same would be true for the sabbath observant techie on call. Most likely its possible for someone else to do it. Of course, this is more complicated in Israel (than say in the US) where the person doing the call will more likely be jewish, but again, that's getting into the weeds and beyond the scope of this forum. In the US, you'd probably see orthodox jewish tech coworkers doing sat night/sunday calls but not friday night/saturday calls for weekend calls.

not just about not using it on the sacred sabbath...

They aren't supposed to be using the internet, speaking to people of other genders... sending and receiving multi-media, etc.

It's a shomer phone.

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