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Comment by freddie_mercury | Hacker News Reader

Germany has more draconic laws than the US in this situation, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

"Under German law, the maximum term for one count of aggravated tax evasion is 10 years. If an accused is convicted of more than one count, the court can increase the maximum to 15 years."

The US is 5 years for each count, half of Germany's.

Macafee was under accused of multiple crimes, which added up to the headline figure of 30 years.

If he had been German it would have 60 years for those same multiple crimes.

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Nope, we don’t add up prison time in Germany for repeating the same or related crimes over and over. On top, the 10/15 years are the maximum and barely reached. E.g. Uli Hoeneß, ex-manager of the soccer club Bayern Munich, got 3.5 years for evasion of ~30m dollar in a total of 7 counts, but could actually leave prison after sth like two years, 1.5 of which where „open jail time“, so he could go to work and only had to sleep in jail.

> Nope, we don’t add up prison time in Germany for repeating the same or related crimes over and over. On top, the 10/15 years are the maximum and barely reached.

The USA is similar, sentences are often served concurrently meaning the headline numbers don’t get added up. Headlines reflect the absolute maximum penalties but there’s something called the Sentencing Guidelines that is used to set the actual length of the sentences and whether they are concurrent. https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/introducing-guidelines-app

> but there’s something called the Sentencing Guideline

But which are, as the name suggests, “more what you’d call guidelines than actual rules.”

Still, a better measure of likely sentence than naively adding up statutory maxima for individual counts.

I think the Feds were after him pretty hard, they are rather vindictive and take his types of statements personally and that they encourage others to try and beat the system as well. Rarely is it only "the crime". Political ambition and Puritanical outlooks on morality often figure in with federal prosecutors.

> Political ambition and Puritanical outlooks on morality often figure in with federal prosecutors.

Perhaps, but prosecutors don’t unilaterally set sentences, and neither of those are either guidelines factors or things that you can cite to get a trial court to depart from (and an appeals court to uphold departure from) the guidelines.

Interestingly, I’ve just listened to Kahneman’s “Noise”, which features a whole chapter about Sentencing Guidelines in the US! Very good book!

> Uli Hoeneß

That would be an example for someone punished lightly. If you and I did this it would be near maximum possible. Some people are more equal.

This is simply not true.

You and me would be smart enough to hire lawyers that can file a proper „Selbstanzeige“ according to §371 Abgabenordnung, which would prevent us from going to jail altogether ;-)

Are you holding that up as an example of a functional justice system?

Because that strikes me as more dysfunctional, where people are getting preferential treatment because they're part of the German footie machine.

The example is just the one that’s most well known in Germany, but almost 4 years for tax evasion is in fact a high sentence and far from preferential treatment, taking into account that Hoeneß turned himself in voluntarily which was, due to mistakes of his lawyers, not accounted for in court. Better tax lawyers could have probably prevented jail time all together in such a scenario. „Open jail“ is the usual way to go for confessed and remorseful, non-violent prisoners with a job and a stable social environment. He paid roughly 50m dollars on top of that, btw.

But why do you chose this example? It’s not realistic at all. Maybe if John was German and also involved in German football. But as German business man he would have sentenced to 10 years.

As I said, it’s a well known case. But it seems like you can show proof of “regular” German business men or women who were punished much harder? Would you be so kind to drop some names and links?

Prison time here in Germany is limited to 15 years at max — independent on the number of crimes. People imprisoned for violent crimes may stay there for their whole life if they pose an ongoing threat to public safety.

He would have been 90 and most likely still suicided. I have no doubt that the german system is much better run and more just that the American system. We've turned it into a private industry and some states even treat prisoners as industrial slaves.

- Prison time here in Germany is limited to 15 years at max

- People imprisoned for violent crimes may stay there for their whole life if they pose an ongoing threat to public safety.

So... Germany DOES have a life sentence. Kinda misleading to state it doesn't.

Not sure about Germany, but here in Norway we have prison sentence with a max of 21 years which is a punishment.

However we also have "forvaring", or detention, which is locking someone up to protect the public.

If you're sentenced to "forvaring", you're not let go at the end. Instead a commission will review your case and behavior, and determine if the "forvaring" needs to be extended or not. So while you can't get more than 11 years (IIRC) at a time, the sentence can be extended indefinitely.

The important point is that "forvaring" isn't mean to be a punishment, although I assume it might certainly feel like it. It's meant to protect the public from a dangerous individual.

It’s not misleading. The prison term is 15 yrs max. In case of extraordinary violent crimes, the prisoner will be continuously evaluated and - if deemed to be a threat to public safety - hold on custody. Not because of the crime itself, but as a preventive measure. Once the evaluation no longer suggests a threat to public safety, they can leave.

the penalty is a maximum of 15 years. The is something called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" - meaning "keeping for security (of society)". In that case the criminal served his sentence but is still locked up because he is considered dangerous for society. But because it's officially not a punishment anymore they have to be treated less harshly, with more comfortable cells etc.

What? It says right there "more than one count, the court can increase the maximum to 15 years." It doesn't say per count. If you're convicted of more than one (up to infinity) the maximum is 15 years.

> If he had been German it would have 60 years for those same multiple crimes.

Nope. That's nonsense. Contrary to other countries, prison time isn't added on a per-conviction basis in Germany. There's maximum prison time per crime (in this case: 15 years) and that's that.

wouldnt it be 15 years, as thats the maximum?

Also jail times do not add up in Germany like in the US it seems. If you are guilty of violating several laws you still receive only a single punishment („Tateinheit“). If McAfee has not declared his income tax correctly in three consecutive years this would count as a single violation of the law.

You literally quote "maximum to 15 years" and say that's worse than 30 years?

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