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Comment by asim | Hacker News Reader

Good. We're taking all of July off at my company. Why? Because covid was an incredibly hard period for all of us and we as humans need a break. Somehow we all just seem to expect things to keep going like nothing changed. We all just seem to be expected to gloss over the pains of isolation, potential death and stress of work and life with no separation or boundaries. We made a conscious decision at my place of work to actually acknowledge the difficulties we've all been through and we're just going to take July off, because what else are we going to do? Ignore it? No. We won't do that.

I'd advise everyone to try take as much time off as possible this year. If it's available to you, take an extended break. The mental, physical and psychological damage of covid is something we really can't ignore.

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This is a very subjective statement. The pandemic has been bar none the best period of my life. Increased physical and social distance from other people, no need to emote in public thanks to masks, no need to commute, greater accommodation for non-social options like self-checkouts. My physical and mental health have skyrocketed, and as a result I feel like I've been on vacation for a year and half, despite only taking about 3 days of vacation the entire time and starting a new and more intense job.

Those of you who have found the slightly over a year duration of the pandemic difficult have gotten a sample of how miserable pre-pandemic life was for those of us who are more introverted or misanthropic.

I've never been so envious of happily married people in my life. Being single throughout this ordeal has broken me mentally, particularly at an age (31) where I'm staring down the last couple years of being able to meet someone my age. And the prospects coming out of it are grim. For people with a happy home life, this may have been a good time. But for the isolated, work from home, single people with no long term social circle outside of work, it has been an utter nightmare.

I'm a little older but not by a lot, and was in a similar situation where I was in my early 30s where I felt my window for getting things done in life was closing and I didn't have a relationship and felt socially isolated in general (for different reasons since it wasn't covid 19 at the time, but still). Things were looking incredibly bleak for me.

But things can change awfully fast even if it seems hopeless, don't give up. The potentially partners you'll meet at this age tend to be more mature on average (generalizing of course!), and I think have a much more healthy perspective on life than the people I often met dating in my 20s. Keep in mind that dating is a numbers game, and like any numbers game, you increase your chances of success the more you play. You need to meet as many people as possible and have fewer expectations--the worse that happens is it doesn't work out and you move on. The hardest part is getting over the fear of rejection, but it can be done, even for the shy.

If it's more the isolation in general that's getting to you rather than no partner, I think if you look around you'll find clubs or groups you can hang around potentially--again you need to get yourself out of your comfort zone and just go join those things. If you're into gaming, feel free to message me (or chat about IT stuff or whatnot--Moonshine#3246 is my Discord).

Covid has been really hard on a lot of people for various reasons, but you're definitely not alone and I'm sure there are plenty of people also looking for more social interaction right now. Just need to find 'em.

Huh? What?

I'm about to turn 32 and I'm a bit confused about the whole "last couple of years of being able to meet someone".

I know people who met and got married in their 40s...

Edit: go easy on yourself pal. We've all got enough to deal with in the world without beating ourselves up over imaginary deadlines.

Edit2: also, a lot of marriages are not happy. Imagine having to live in one of them during a pandemic. Usually made me feel better about being single!

I only know through friends, but dating in your 30s seems like an absolute nightmare - they all hate it and find it completely joyless and deeply cynical. Trying to fit someone new into an already fully-formed life at that point seems very hard.

Also 35 is the point where medicine considers a pregnancy to be 'geriatric'. And some people are going through menopause by 40! You don't have an infinite amount of time in life no matter how positive your outlook!

Well, a different perspective (as someone who was unwillingly tossed back into the dating pool at age 38).

While online dating was indeed a bit of a nightmare, dating older women in general was a net positive for me.

I liked people who have lived life a bit, made mistakes, hopefully learned from them, are past the point of obsession about body type, and are more focused on character and how to treat/be treated properly.

People do learn and grow as they age, and most of us become better people.

> Also 35 is the point where medicine considers a pregnancy to be 'geriatric'.

Which is a dated term that isn't used frequently. Yes the risks for certain things increase after 35 but pregnancy after 35 or 40+ is healthy and common.

> some people are going through menopause by 40!

The average age of Menopause is 51, before 40 is considered "premature menopause".

https://www.webmd.com/menopause/guide/premature-menopause-sy...

Not to mention that plenty of people (men and women) just don't want kids.

The technical term was 'geriatric primagravida' for us with a first child at 32! It felt quite insulting at the time.

>I know people who met and got married in their 40s...

It all depends on what you're looking for I guess. Certainly you can get married in your 40s. But at that point having a single child, let alone a few, becomes a monumental task. It's not an imaginary deadline. Fertility falls off a cliff at 35 [0].

[0] https://www.kinderzeit.org/en/fertility-by-age/

> becomes a monumental task

Even ignoring the fact that fertility treatments exist...

1 in 4 healthy women in their 20s and 30s will get pregnant in any single menstrual cycle. (The American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists, 2018)

1 in 10 healthy women in their 40s will get pregnant in any single menstrual cycle. (The American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists, 2018)

hardly monumental

Nobody is saying it's impossible, on average - but people aren't aggregate statistics. Some women are already going to be unable to get pregnant by 35, more by forty. Many more will struggle, but might be able to get pregnant. I believe the study you cited is biased by excluding some of these as 'unhealthy' - essentially it is limiting the population to just women who still can get pregnant at these ages.

Once more, the number of chromosomal abnormalities skyrockets after 30 and by 40 around three quarters of eggs (or more, for an individual) will have serious abnormalities.

Even if only a small fraction of women would struggle at 35, but could have gotten pregnant at 25 - for her it's a tragedy. And she is not helped by these messages that 'no worries it's easy to get pregnant at 40'

Well that is a much softer point than the one I was responding to which called the age related fertility decline “monumental” in support of the implied conclusion that it is somehow imperative for otherwise healthy women to have children by their 30s.

Regarding your anecdote I do not see its relevance to a discussion of population statistics. People can be infertile because they were paralyzed in a car accident but that doesn’t mean the original claim wasn’t overstated and now walked back.

Regardless, I think narrowing in this specifically on reproductive biology of women in the context of who you date and how you think about relationships is a recipe for failure. Not only does it have somewhat creepy bio-essentialist connotations, but socioeconomic factors and healthcare access also have huge impacts on the health and success of any given pregnancy and childhood/life.

In short, "I have to date right now because I'm 30 and my hypothetical childbearing vessels are becoming less optimal" is an unhealthy and probably incorrect attitude.

I'd agree that it's a poor sole reason to date, but its definitely something to think about if you really want children. Two of my girlfriends in their mid 30s are 'technically' able to get pregnant but functifinally unable due to PCOS - its biologically possible for them to get pregnant (handful of viable eggs left, occasional good cycles). Not a lot of women get advice as teens like 'you have PCOS, you're going to really struggle to have children and its only going to get worse if you wait'.

1) Fertility treatments are expensive and don't work for everyone

2) "1 in 10 healthy women in their 40s will get pregnant in any single menstrual cycle". I.e. there is a 90% chance that a woman over 40 will have at least some difficulty getting pregnant. Likely more than that if their partner is similar in age because male fertility declines with age as well.

3) Getting pregnant is only the first step. Miscarriage rates also increase with age.

> 2) "1 in 10 healthy women in their 40s will get pregnant in any single menstrual cycle". I.e. there is a 90% chance that a woman over 40 will have at least some difficulty getting pregnant.

That is not what it means. It is unlikely at any age to get pregnant in one menstrual cycle.

"Each month, the average 30-year-old woman has about a 20% chance of getting pregnant. A 40-year-old only has a 5% chance of getting pregnant each month."

https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-are-the-chances-of-getti...

Not just conceiving; _having_ a baby becomes much harder as you age. Birthing is a pretty physically stressful process for lots of women, and the following few years is a lot of very hard work. The most demanding of your life, probably.

Edit: Wanted to add, though, that _dating_ in your 30s and 40s just gets better and better. Don't worry about that. Maturity is a bonus, not a drawback.

Getting pregnant is not the only risk factor that rises.

Good luck if you plan on having kids after 40 though...

I'm one of those happily married people and my heart has been going out to people like you the whole time.

It's an incredible blessing to have been locked-in and had 24/7 support from someone I love and I wish you had it too.

Sorry you had to face this alone.

It really sucks for people like you at the moment, and I really feel for you. Saying that, being happily married but with two small kids (both under 2, for most of lockdown) was no joke either.

Hey man, if you ever need someone to shoot the shit with or whatever, shoot me a DM via keybase (https://keybase.io/ojensen) or any of the networks linked there. I'm also pretty okay at several online multiplayer games if that kind of thing floats your boat.

Being alone sucks and an internet friend won't fix that, but maybe it can help :)

As a newly single guy in Jan 2020, I went on Bumble for the first time... She moves in July 1st. Try it out, I had sworn I'd never do it.

> particularly at an age (31) where I'm staring down the last couple years of being able to meet someone

You still have plenty of time - even to meet someone and have kids. Just focus on getting yourself into a good state - gym, hygiene, activities/hobbies where you can meet people. The rest will come.

I was feeling pretty awful by the time April came around, being in the same position as you. But I took advantage of the fact that I work remote now and moved to a very large and densely populated city you've heard of. Meeting people and socializing regularly has completely changed my point of view. Obviously, not everyone can do this, but perhaps the moral is that a change of perspective would be beneficial and some sort of life change could catalyze that. A huge advantage of being single is that you have a lot more freedom to just up and go where you like.

Nothing to add, but want to validate all your thoughts. I'm in the exact same position.

> particularly at an age (31) where I'm staring down the last couple years of being able to meet someone

What?

I'm 33, only a few months into my current relationship, and I have to say that dating is so much better at this age than it ever was.

>I'm 33, only a few months into my current relationship, and I have to say that dating is so much better at this age than it ever was.

You can get lucky. There are certainly unicorns out there. Or you can date younger, if you're ok with that. But by and large, women and men work on different timelines. And you don't realize this as a man until it hits. The vast majority of women are out of the dating pool by 30. And by this age, you've both ossified into separate individuals with rigid expectations and assumptions about life, which makes the flexibility needed to build a real lasting connection infinitely harder.

I’m afraid that’s quite a bit of self referential bias. So let me raise your hopes with some of mine: I met my wife when she was 30 and already had 2 kids. We’ve been together for 16 years now, got 2 daughters (so 4 children in total), and are nothing like the individuals we were 16 years ago. We’ve grown together, we’ve grown separately - we’ve changed yearly. Since you’re aware of it now: don’t become an individual with rigid expectations and assumptions. Life is constantly evolving.

Aim to hit 80 and still shake your head at the person you were when you was 70 ;-)

Here’s one of my favorite quotes that feels relevant:

“We thought of life by analogy with a journey, a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end, and the thing was to get to that end, success or whatever it is, maybe heaven after you’re dead. But we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing or to dance while the music was being played”

You can find love at any age.

Thanks for sharing this lovely anecdote, and for the positive sentiment. Unfortunately I do agree with the person you're replying to - these days, it is vanishingly unlikely to find a partner past your early 30s.

Only a tiny proportion of the adult population in most western countries is single, and asymmetries in the dating pool induced by modern modes of meeting people (ie: apps) have radically upended traditional ideals about coupling and compatibility. Respectfully, if you met your partner 16 years ago (congrats by the way!), that might as well be a completely different world than the one we live in now. I sympathise with the GP's expression of urgency.

I am really really challenging your sentiment - we live in a time where more and more people than ever stay single even in their early 30s. Especially the gender balance there has changed immensly. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

I love that quote. :) Thanks for sharing.

Why wouldn't you date someone younger? At 31 assuming you have your life reasonably together and aren't living in some rural area (or san francisco lol) you can definitely meet attractive and interesting women 25+ that would be interested in settling down on your timeframe. Dating is all about self fulfilling prophecies so if you're telling yourself there are no women available that's what you're going to manifest.

>and aren't living in some rural area (or san francisco lol)

That was a good laugh. I think in retrospect spending my 20s in San Francisco had a lot to do with now being single in my 30s.

Why is that? What's wrong with SF for dating? (just curious)

>"Why is that? What's wrong with SF for dating? (just curious)"

Where to begin?

The tech industry is massively skewed towards male, so right off the bat your odds of meeting someone in your work life is near nil. Then, with the complete lack of affordable housing, there's no such thing as just being a single 20-something living independently and supporting yourself on a non-tech salary. Bare minimum subsistence income is about $80k. So that filters out the vast majority of women who are in non-tech careers and simply cannot afford to move there.

At that point you're basically left with the lucky few locals who have parents that bought houses in the 80s/90s and live with them rent free, or the unicorn types who make enough to live in SF independently.

From that vanishingly small pool of women, you're now competing with the guys who made startup money or have the $300k+ FAANG gigs and can afford luxury vacations, nice condos, BMWs, etc.

An average dude doesn't stand a chance.

Don’t feel too bad about the highly paid tech dudes. Tech dudes don’t stand a chance either because women don’t want to date another tech dude.

I’m turning 31 in a couple months and am coming out of a 5 year relationship. It’s looking grim AF. My only real hope is that I get back with my ex eventually.

I did the fancy vacations. I have the high income (~400k). I have a reasonably high net worth for my age (~2M). Even have the BMW! Didn’t stop her from walking away because she didn’t wanna date just a miserable workaholic techie anymore!!

Honestly, the best candidates that I think many women are aiming for aren’t the tech guys. It’s the guys with rich families. They’re the ones I see not really having any issues because they don’t really need to have any kind of shit job. They got parental money after all.

> It’s looking grim AF. > I have the high income (~400k). > high net worth for my age (~2M)

SF is like another planet. Unless you're exceptionally ugly or have an incredibly bad personality, you wouldn't have problem dating anywhere else on entire Earth.

I'm 33, living in Eastern Europe, and have nothing special in terms of looks (probably solid 6, but you can just google my username) or money (certainly nothing even close to SF tech salaries). And yet, when I re-activate my profile on Tinder, I get first 100 likes in a first day or two.

2M@31 means you could do almost anything and not have to have any kind of shit job.

E.g. you could buy a farm in the midwest and hire laborers, marry a local, and live life with the salt of the earth.

Ah, yes, because that's clearly what I want to do. Who really earns 2M by this age and goes, "Yeah, I wanna hire cheap immigrant laborers and live on a farm in BFE." Nearly no one.

Would you say that the gender ratio also counts against you as a factor? Do you think you would be probably better off dating transnationally or internationally? Oh, and what kind of Bimmer?

135is convertible. Sporty, outrageously loud, and full of fun. I’d get a 1M but no drop top kills it for me. Also, I don’t have to feel as bad for driving it because a 1M is a collectible now.

Gender ratio is definitely horrible. Likely the worst factor against straight men. It’s obvious everywhere. Dating in other cities is likely a lot better (especially not on the west coast AFAICT). It’s no surprise that most long term couples I’ve met in SF have met outside the Bay Area.

I’ve heard access to the best dating in SF is by getting a cab down to SFO and flying anywhere else.

Is dating really that bad across the entire west coast? Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, and San Diego included? As far as your own dating life is concerned, what do you intend to do for yourself given how bad the circumstances are for you?

I hear LA and SD are better. But otherwise, pretty bad compared to east coast. Gender balance is just not there because of so many tech jobs.

I have nothing I can do. I’ll see if I can meet someone else in another city when I get back to traveling. That’s about my only hope. I have in person activities I do but I don’t think post-pandemic will bring enough new blood to make up for the bad odds. (Even the activity I do which is normally known for being woman heavy is more heavily male here than anywhere else I’ve seen in the world)

What activity would that be? Also, any lessons learned with regard to your ex that you'd like to impart just so the rest of us don't fall through the same cracks you did?

There is no money like old money.

probably because its very heavily skewed towards tech dudes

> you've both ossified into separate individuals with rigid expectations and assumptions about life

This is the real issue, not the dating pool.

The obvious evidence against the dating pool is that a fairly large number of divorced people I know getting into serious relationships and married again fairly quickly regardless of their age when the divorce happens.

All of the unhappy single people I know (and there are some happy ones that don't mind) share the same paradoxical thinking: I'm unhappy with how my life is, and I want to be in a close relationship with someone, but am absolutely unwilling to change anything major (sometimes even minor) about who I am, what I believe or how I live.

It seems obvious, but if you are unwilling to change anything about your life, then the only changes you experience are going to be those that are thrust upon you, such as the pandemic.

I’m married to someone about my age, but I don’t see many downsides to dating younger once you’re in your 30s. Mid-20s is old enough for most women to be out of the immature phase of their life, and you’ll have a wife that’s going to look younger longer and be more fertile.

There was no way to type that out without sounding gross.

The proposition for women in their 30s is worse, even if it is easier to find a date. That biological clock is ticking and most men don’t want to date someone older than them.

There are 0 unicorns and 3.9 billion women out there. Many of those are dateable. I can see why somebody would think like you if they've been single for a long time, but my experience has been that arranging dates in my mid-late twenties and early thirties is easier than ever.

I met my wife at age 42, been happily married two years now.

I've come to learn that relationships and my ability to navigate them have only improved with age.

I look back at myself and how I treated people in my 20s and cringe.

How did exactly did you treat people in your 20's?

I could probably best describe it as non-malicious unintentional callous disregard, coupled with a belief that I'd mostly figured everything out - and a deep-seated need to always be "right" and "win".

I had not yet learned that at the point where there is an argument, both people have already lost.

>>I could probably best describe it as non-malicious unintentional callous disregard, coupled with a belief that I'd mostly figured everything out - and a deep-seated need to always be "right" and "win".

Sounds like well-earned confidence with a bit self-possessiveness . But on the whole that's not unusual or something that should be frowned upon.

>>I had not yet learned that at the point where there is an argument, both people have already lost.

I used to think like that and all that resulted was having my concerns paid lip service to if not outright dismissed, being blamed when something didn't go someone's way despite not being given clear instruction, being guilted into keeping the peace at the expense of my sense of self, etc. Being useful meant becoming easy to take for granted. Anything less was regarded as "not doing my best", "defiance", "rebellion", and "causing trouble". Polite logical debate and asking the hard questions (when I eventually got to that stage) were met with evasion and scorn in addition to rampant hypocrisy and double standards. At the end of it all, arguing was the only way to truly know where I stand in the world and on what terms or, at the very least, led me to learn how to salvage myself and cut my losses (too late in my opinion, but better late than never). If I had been more willing to be upfront with my disregard for certain ideas, more willing to leverage "No" or "I don't care" without fear of reprisal (real or perceived), then I probably would have been in a better position to know in advance which arguments are worth it and which ones would be pointless time wasters. But I know first-hand that if you don't make yourself or your desired way of life a priority to be defended by whatever means you can muster, no one will. And you will suffer for it.

If it's really stressing you out, consider dating people younger than you are.

A five year gap is nothing by the time you're in your thirties.

Being an introvert does NOT mean having unreadable or negative "resting face" expressions, nor does it mean dreading routine interaction with other humans, and it ESPECIALLY is not anything like "misanthropic".

What some of you people are describing sound more like autism or some kinds of personality disorders. That's very different from introversion--- which roughly half of the population could be categorized as.

How do you define misanthropy? A quick google search says the following: "Misanthropy is the general hatred, dislike, distrust or contempt of the human species, human behavior or human nature." That applies to me, which is why I dislike being around people that aren't loved ones, and why I've enjoyed the lockdown world where extra systems have emerged to keep people away from me. People with autism may or may not feel similarly, I can't say. I don't have problems socializing, I just dislike people.

I'm an extreme introvert as well, my wife is all the social interaction I require, and I'm a giant homebody, but I'm still super tired. Work wise I've been under pressure for a fair bit this year and there were no experiences to balance it out with. I miss a lot of small indulgences - quiet brunches on a Wednesday morning or going to get coffee. I may even miss the movie theater occasionally.

I certainly don't miss working from the office, but I miss the variety of downtime. A camel doesn't often need water, but they still need it.

This is basically how I feel. I'm an introvert and I'm exhausted and need a break. Being an introvert does not necessarily mean I like sitting in my small apartment all day with a roommate for months on end.

I need a vacation.

Perhaps you're not as extreme as you think, or perhaps I'm more extreme than most. I didn't miss movie theaters, eating out, driving, museums, malls, nothing. I have been able to stay in great shape with weights at home and biking, get more than enough socialization with my partner, and have plenty of hobbies that don't require interaction with or proximity to other people. There's a reason that my life goal is to escape into hermitude: I have zero interest in being around or seeing other humans unless they're loved ones.

Yeah, I don't care to see the people, my wife is enough for me, but I want a change and new experiences. Not even to travel, but to take some time and recover. Eat some food I don't usually eat, experience some things I haven't felt good about for the last year and a bit.

> Increased physical and social distance from other people

I believe for many people, this is more because "everyone else does it" and the general "miserable office atmosphere" in our industry. I'm not accusing the OP of anything by the way.

I would have said that I was in the group of "you've said hello, that's enough social contact for one day", yet after 15 months, at least according to friends and family, I'm more friendly, more sociable, and more outgoing.

I think really for a lot of people that are enjoying WFH for the last 15 months, what they're really enjoying, myself included is not sitting 2 feet from someone who is not family, that talks, fidgets, coughs, sniffs, slurps, and eats food at their desk 3 times a day, and being in an open plan office with 10-100 other people.

As a (currently, sort of) introvert, I agree with both you and the parent. I also had a great time during the pandemic. But I was behaving exactly as I was before, when I was depressed. The difference is that now everyone else – even celebrities and Instagram party girls – were suddenly living my lifestyle, and that gave me a sense of comfort. It meant that I no longer felt like I was letting the world pass me by, because the world stopped.

But now it’s back on again, frankly, that feeling is coming back. It was nice while it lasted, but that’s clearly not sustainable for anyone.

I'm "old" by the standards on here, in fact retirement isn't too far away if I want it, and I'm genuinely intrigued by how my personality is going to change once I'm no longer working. I see the last 15 months or so as a trial run, and it's been great.

I'm dreading going to back to the office if I'm honest.

I've been WFH for 4 years now and thoroughly enjoy it.

I enjoy isolation, I love the intensity of coding that I can get done. I'm generally more introverted.

That doesn't make the pandemic fun and rainbows. It's still been psychologically the most difficult time for me because I live in NYC. Walking the dog twice a day on ghost streets empty of any pedestrians, devoid of the hum of traffic and hearing nothing but the wails of every ambulance in the area for the better part of a month was deeply disturbing in a way I still haven't come to terms with.

Rubbing down the door knob with bleach. Double masking and surgical gloving when going to the bodega on the block for fruit. A real and valid fear of death and maiming for multiple months isn't something you just bounce back from.

So yes: It's a subjective statement. However it's not like just being an introvert made the pandemic a walk in the park. Don't mistake your experience as speaking for all introverts.

> Rubbing down the door knob with bleach.

This article [1] implies the chance of catching COVID-19 from contact surfaces is 1 in 10,000 *at best* under lab conditions, and negligible at best. You're more likely to be struck by lightning or hit by a car.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-r...

The funny thing is bleach is what you need to stop noro and rota viruses, and those are actually very transmissible via surfaces, yet the protocol at my kids’ daycare (national chain) does not involve bleaching door knobs on the regular.

The same daycare that 2 weeks ago had an outbreak of noro or rotavirus which caused entire classes of toddlers to be infected and go home and vomit for a day and was spread to siblings and parents at home.

But they are still sanitizing pens. People’s risk profiles are crazy, and there is an insane amount of cover your ass for PR purposes.

Right, but NYC was hit hard relatively early on, and at the time there was a great deal of fear and uncertainty, especially because of the perception that the administration at the time had indicated it’s general hostility toward people in “blue” cities. People didn’t have the time or perhaps the perspective to step back and read whatever pre prints may have been available.

I appreciate your empathy here.

This advisory wasn't even available in March or April of 2020: there was nothing. The URL has only existed since April of 2021.

It says updated Apr 2021. I certainly recall reading that COVID transmission via surfaces was minimal sometime in 2020, earlier rather than later.

During the major outbreak in NYC from March - May we were actively told to wipe down surfaces.

Early on in the pandemic not a lot was known, so many of us took every precaution we could.

And those odds for being hit by lightning are over a lifetime.

I don't think this is how most introverts have felt. Introversion doesn't mean you dislike interaction with other people. Like others mentioned, what you're describing doesn't sound like just being introverted, it sounds like ASD or some other personality disorder.

Definitely subjective though. I'd say I'm an introvert, and I've made it through ok, but it still very much feels like I lost a year of my life. It's really not been too different from being in prison in the country where I live.

That's quite callous towards people with autism. Many people with autism very much want to socialize and integrate into society, but have difficulties doing so. I don't have difficulties socializing, I just don't like people (misanthropy) and get drained by socialization (introversion), which is why the pandemic has been a great time for me. Of course by that I mean the circumstances as they have impacted my life, not the health status of people.

> no need to emote in public thanks to masks

I will miss that. I liked not being told that I look angry or that I should smile sometimes.

I’m curious, are you female? I don’t think I’ve ever been asked that unless I was unbelievably angry. Like maybe once or twice in my entire adult life.

I get asked quite often if I'm angry, grumpy, down, "what's wrong?" even when I'm absolutely fine and none of those things.

I was even stopped by a random stranger in a supermarket once and they asked if I was OK... I said I was fine, and then she asked if it had been a long day... erm. Guess it's just my face.

I remember in the supermarket I was actually just thinking about if a man could beat a giraffe in a fight.

With technological help like guns, obviously the man wins. Without technology but with enough preparation, humans probably still win because they could rig up traps and whatnot. Straight up the giraffe would wreck a humans because they can kick really hard with their long legs.

Terrain probably matters a lot here. On flat ground the giraffe kicks the shit out of humans. On uneven terrain with nooks and crannies to hide in and trip up the long legged thing, and rocks to throw at it to keep it mad, I think a human would have a good chance (not a giraffe fighting expert).

Humans probably have more stamina, if you can drag out the fight.

> not a giraffe fighting expert

I think it's hilarious that HN needs such a disclaimer.

I was originally trying to come up with an interesting acronym like IANAL (I am not a lawyer), but gave up ;)

Lots of FAANG people on here (Fighting An Antagonized Naked Giraffe).

Speaking from personal experience, this happens to male humans as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resting_bitch_face: "Using a type of facial recognition system, they found that the phenomenon is real and the condition is as common in males as in females, despite the gendered word bitch that is used to name the concept."

Resting Jerk Face is gender neutral.

As a male, it's happened to me quite often, since my age was in single-digits. I just have a naturally serious expression, I guess. It also applies to people from other cultures like eastern Europe, where it's not the default to go around smiling and laughing in public or making small talk to strangers. Default expressions vary quite a bit and maybe yours is just more cheery or neutral.

I'm male but hear such remarks ~1--3 times any given workweek.

I intend to keep the mask on at the grocery store even after the pandemic. I hope it won't be stigmatized.

Yea, I kind of cringe when I read the all-hands e-mails from my company that say things like "We know this has been incredibly difficult for all of you..." and "Everyone wants to get back into the office..." Wow, speak for yourself--it's been the best year of my life, and no, I'd rather just stay remote permanently, thankyouverymuch!

On the other hand, it gives me a chance to step back and develop some real empathy for everyone else. I recognize that I am blessed, and most people aren't wired like me, and the isolation has been really tough for them. When I interact with people over videoconference, I have to remind myself that this person might very well be suffering to the point of a mental breakdown from all this, and I need to communicate with care and thoughtfulness.

> On the other hand, it gives me a chance to step back and develop some real empathy for everyone else. I recognize that I am blessed, and most people aren't wired like me, and the isolation has been really tough for them. When I interact with people over videoconference, I have to remind myself that this person might very well be suffering to the point of a mental breakdown from all this, and I need to communicate with care and thoughtfulness.

This is what I hope everybody else can come out of the pandemic with: empathy, particularly for people like you and me who have thrived during the pandemic. Unfortunately, I fear you are an exception and people will push to make things just how they were before, as evinced by your email. On the bright side, I think it will at least get a little easier to find remote jobs, etc moving forward.

Agree. I’ve suffered levels of abuse far too many times simply because someone misread my facial expressions professionally/personally. My school bullies would examine my expressions intimately and the “lessons” they instilled on me through my basic desire to not give them something to read stand to this day. Having a simple block over my face has been downright comforting. And frankly I’m not missing the everyday exposures to allergens nor anything else in the air.

I keep hearing this over and over. I get it, some people are fairly introverted, some really enjoy WFH.

But what stopped you from distancing from people and using self-checkouts before the pandemic? If you hate people, fine, just go home straight after work, you aren't obligated to hang out with anyone. It is not like the government would fine you for coming home before 11pm, right?

> But what stopped you from distancing from people and using self-checkouts before the pandemic?

This was not uniformly accepted behaviour. Yes, some people could find roles and a situation where this was possible before, but most couldn't. Stores didn't really optimize for a self-check out experience.

The social pressure in many organizations and communities to conform was high and there was no escape. If you you wanted to work at a tech company or startup you would have to accept open offices, happy hours, and other social requires to a great extent. It was not acceptable to skip many events and you had no option to switch your working environment in the office because the only option was open space.

The pandemic has forced a change, most importantly, in a relatively uniform manner. I'm not making the argument that we should all accept this other extreme. Just as we return to normality we should consider the experiences of others, and try to make some reasonable adaptations.

Not speaking to the other points, but I did notice many stores completely reconfigured the checkouts in my area; before the pandemic there were few very tiny self checkout stalls, and there was always a long line of people with just a few items.

Now almost all the aisles are self-checkout and are friendlier to larger cart-fulls like I buy (having a few kids means there's no such thing as a quick trip with a hand basket anymore...).

It's a third of my life, half of my waking hours, that I'm forced to be in a box, dealing with people I wouldn't choose to breath the same air as, pretending to be interested in their small-talk.

If you're working this job and you started it in the office, you actually chose to breathe the same air as the coworkers you seem to so dislike. Saying otherwise is deceiving yourself.

No one is forcing you to pretend interest in small talk. If you're not interested in it, say so instead of pretending.

Are you afraid you'll lose your job over being antisocial or rude if you don't pretend to get along with your coworkers?

You might be happier if you look for a job you don't hate.

(Also if you stop seeing other people as beneath you, but that's a taller order)

You voluntarily signed up to do the job.

By your argument, many people also voluntarily chose to stay home. Plenty of people continued flying, going on spring break, going to clubs, etc throughout the pandemic if there were no legal lockdowns.

If you're a normal person who understands consequences and social interactions, you also understand that not playing social games comes at a cost. As you said yourself:

> just go home straight after work

In your own hypothetical example, I'm still required to be in an office or else be jobless. Finding remote jobs isn't trivial.

Yep, As my company slowly starts going back to the office, I decided to move to a remote/rural area because I wasn't willing to go back into an office everyday. I expected to have to find a new job, but my current employer offered to let me continue remotely, so I suppose it has worked out.

I am jelaous. My company has a stated goal of going back to its old ways. I requested basically hybrid mode ( one day in office a week ) to show I am a team player, but it is clear remote is reserved for favorites..

Perhaps I'm a favorite... for now - my company is getting acquired, so I may be on the job hunt soon anyway.

I think it's very fair and valid for you to feel however you want with regards to shelter-in-place/wfh/lockdown, but to me it seems somewhat unconscionable to be smug like enjoying your time alone is a huge win against extroverts.

I feel like it's a pretty ridiculous over-statement to say that introverts feel like they're in a pandemic normally. I'm an introvert and don't feel like that. I suspect the only people who could reasonably feel like that are people with anxiety disorders or phobias.

I don't know, I'm not saying you can't express your opinion or feel how you feel. But I want to express I'm a bit grossed out reading your post, as you seem just a bit too gleeful and smug at this whole situation.

Please tell me where I expressed any glee at other people's misfortunes. What I said was the following which is a statement, not an expression of emotion:

> Those of you who have found the slightly over a year duration of the pandemic difficult have gotten a sample of how miserable pre-pandemic life was for those of us who are more introverted or misanthropic.

It doesn't impact me what other people feel, but I do hope that people who have not enjoyed lockdown can gain some empathy for the people who have enjoyed lockdown. It seems more like you're defensive at somebody having different preferences than you, which is just how life works.

Additionally, I don't have anxiety. Not before nor during the pandemic. So my point was not anxiety, my point was that the same way life during the pandemic has caused many people inconvenience and frustration, pre-pandemic life is inconvenient and frustrating to me because of the obligation to play social games and always be around people. It's quite tiresome and irritating.

> I'm an introvert and don't feel like that.

I also didn't say all introverts feel like I do, I said pre-pandemic life is miserable for those of us who are _more_ introverted or misanthropic.

I think you’re being overly reactive to the OP. Glee would be a lot more blatant and celebratory of the misfortune of others. I don’t think that’s their point. Not mine anyway.

I’m pushing back on the sentiment you pose because it’s far too often used and oppressively effective.

It seems OP is quite gratified at the rest of us having gotten "... a sample of how miserable pre-pandemic life was for those of us who are more introverted or misanthropic." when even as mostly an introvert this pandemic has been more than the typical anxiety of having to interact with others when I didn't want to.

I'll copy another comment I made for convenience.

Please tell me where I expressed any glee at other people's misfortunes. What I said was the following which is a statement, not an expression of emotion:

How other people feel doesn't impact me, but I do hope that people who have not enjoyed lockdown can gain some empathy for the people who have enjoyed lockdown. Pre-pandemic life was as uncaring and dismissive of people who thrive during the pandemic as pandemic life is towards people who thrived before the pandemic.

I agree. 2020 was one of the best years of my life.

Why is having to partake in your misery a good thing?

The large majority connect via smiles, laughs, hugs.

It's an unnecessary and superficial conditioning that we need to evolve beyond. Do we want to be cavemen or cybernetic organisms?

Or it’s a biological dependency.

“While most of the early studies were on children residing in orphanages that were deficient in almost every dimension, even children who are reared in relatively good orphanages but who are subject to social and emotional neglect display many of these characteristics while living in the institution”

The effects of early social-emotional and relationship experience on the development of young orphanage children :: Atypical Behaviors

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702123/#:~:tex...

Lucky for you, it's going to be the future soon:

https://open.spotify.com/track/2chEZfdAqJvlw9dM3hAU6p?si=c8f...

I’m not sure if comparing introverted life to a pandemic where people’s friends and families are dying alone in a hospital is a good comparison.

I'm strictly talking about the day to day circumstances of distancing, masks, etc, not illness or death of loved ones as that's obviously an unpleasant thing at any time.

I wouldn’t go as far as you, but I agree. Life got stripped of its tedious socially required games.

Good for you! You can continue working while other people take much needed time off.

> Because covid was an incredibly hard period for all of us and we as humans need a break.

While true and a good thing, i cannot simply take a step back, look at the whole picture and feel this feels a bit awakward. The op (guessing) is perhaps a lucky few that got to keep their jobs through the pandemic, spend more time with family and were baking breads and indulging in gardening etc. This while millions lost their jobs and health insurance, relied on govt assistance or pick a job like a cashier where you constantly met people during a pandemic, while day cares and achools were closed. And feels like we expect the rest of the world to move on like nothing else happened while feel like I need a month's break.

Company-wide month off sounds amazing. Would you be willing to name it (would be great PR for them). If not, would you give a sense of geography, industry and size?

Based on his profile, seems like he is CEO/Founder of his place of work:

> I'm Asim Aslam. The Founder CEO of Micro Services, Inc., creator of the open source cloud platform Micro and a technologist by training.

Size of 9 employees according to linkedin

Took a look at their bio, then website, they appear to be "The Founder CEO of Micro Services, Inc."

this happens at every company in most nordic countries. You take 1-2 months of every summer.

God I wished I worked there. Even without Covid this past year would have been tremendously hard on me. When I've talked to my manager about what I've been going through and explaining how it's impacted my performance I get the "Yea it's been a rough year for everyone" bit.

Finally we reach a point where both the pandemic and everything else has settled down and I'm too burnt out and depressed to enjoy it.

My company has been springkling extra days off throughout the year ("day for me") and its been great.

As someone with a family, we've been mostly doing ok through the pandemic. The biggest stresser for us is the lack of babysitting / kid swaps for being able to get project or personal time in (e.g. my half bath remodel has sat untouched for 6 months now).

> Because covid was an incredibly hard period for all of us

Not really. Most of my family and friends did fine. Whole bunch of them changed to better jobs due to tech job boom, worked from home, started gardening projects, learnt tennis ect. It was more than awesome for whole bunch of ppl.

Yeah I wish more companies would give an extra week of pto this year. Like I didn't leave my house for a year and a half and worked pretty much that whole time without a break while the world felt like it was falling apart.

Can I an extra week to make up for that?

> Because covid was an incredibly hard period for all of us and we as humans need a break.

Ok. Then let's give one to the essential workers who didn't get a break and had to risk their health going in to work every day, delivering food to the WFH crowd, dealing with anti-maskers, delivering packages to the WFH crowd, etc.

Maybe it's because I already got a lot of PTO (7 weeks a years, which is standard on this side of the Atlantic), but mandating time off for all the company seems a bit much over letting employee choose when they want to take some PTO

That is not standard in Europe. Speaking for Ireland and the UK, I believe that the standard is 4 weeks (20 days) plus public holidays.

I would absolutely love it if this became standard, though ;)

> 7 weeks a years, which is standard on this side of the Atlantic

It's not, although it might be in your particular country.

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